Tucked alongside the Voronezh River in Russia lives a shaman. This particular shaman is also an artist, musician and the driving force behind a small publishing house. With an independent ethos and strong creative flair, the impact of this discovery has been considerable. Deep. Stirring. Personal. Enter our guide, Ord Err, as we walk the paths of old together…

Pariah Child bids you a hearty warm welcome! As the sun sinks lower in the autumnal sky, leaves are falling thick and fast here. Has Winter’s cold grip already taken hold in your land?

Good time of a day, Pariah Child, on behalf of the Status Prod label, Mist over Wormwood, Voronezh land and me personally, Ord Err! In the Voronezh lands, autumn is in full swing. The leaves have already covered us with a golden veil, but the cold fingers of winter have not yet squeezed into an ice hoop. Autumn in Russia is beautiful and inspiring. The rivers are not yet covered with ice, the trees have not lost their luxurious hair, melancholic rains are interspersed with a bright, warm sun, and the autumn smell raises from the depths of the soul something exciting, agonizing, with notes of longing for the outgoing warmth. Of course, winter is approaching, but for now we enjoy the last days of still awake nature…

How and when were you first touched by the spirits, forces and energies in the world around you?

When I was very young, I began to pay attention to the events taking place in my life, which I could not explain logically and, accordingly, understand their nature and regularity. Over the years, these events have increased, and understanding came from a completely different side. The acceptance of myself and the forces around me, communication with them, the exchange of energy came. There is no doom or backbreaking work in this. You talk to them – they talk to you.

Please describe the wider region of Voronezh where you live. Have you discovered inspiring sacred sites in the locality or is the gift to connect carried deep within?

It’s worth starting with the fact that the Voronezh region is at the junction of two tectonic plates, we have practically no earthquakes, but from the point of view of energies, this is not fun at all.

Officially, the city of Voronezh was founded in 1586 as a guard post, although people lived here before, since the 1st Millennium BC. And from that time, they almost continuously fought for territory. With the advent of the sentry post, the situation has improved, but not much.

In 1695 Voronezh became the cradle of the Russian Fleet. The fleet was built heavily and not without losses.

The history of Voronezh from the time of Peter I to the Revolution of 1917 is full of numerous events such as the city being destroyed by fires several times. There was a drought and famine too.

During the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945), the front line passed through the centre of the city, residents were killed by invaders, 92% of houses were destroyed. Death was everywhere. The city, literally, was rebuilt on bones.

We live in these energies, with our centuries-old history of death and rebirth. Everywhere there are stories of ghosts, anomalous stars, places as sacred and black as night itself.

The gift of communication is something difficult to describe and comprehend; it is rather another way of obtaining information.

Earlier in this issue, Tony Tears testified to creating and wearing specific masks in different phases of his esoteric journey. What role, if any, do masks play in meditative practice for you?

The mask is a significant element of strength in many cultures and traditions. It serves as an expression of the shaman’s inner potential, a means of union with the spiritual essence depicted on the mask. The mask is a merger with the gods, with all the powerful spirits of this cult. This is a unity with the cult, with the spirit of the mask, an appeal for his help and support.

But, most importantly, the mask is also the main protection. It makes it possible to appear in a modified image, if you need to be invisible. The mask allows you to travel into the world of spirits, and when you return, remain unrecognized by them. This makes it possible to endow yourself with superhuman qualities that cannot be achieved in ordinary life.

The mask should not be worn for fun or decoration though. This is a cult aspect that requires respect and appropriate treatment. That is why images of masks are created. They can be painted, carved from stone, from wood or other natural materials. Such masks can be worn directly on the body, or be located in the house, however, they are the subject of a cult, retaining the ability to protect their owner and the ability to merge with the spirit.

Your ability to craft talismans and amulets is uncanny. An art form almost forgotten. Where do you source these materials? Do you have a sense of the face you will carve from the outset or is each revealed gradually during the process? And do you need specific circumstances, say smells, sounds or lighting, to achieve the optimum results?

Thank you for your kind words. Initially, I cut in stone. For example, I made candlesticks in the ORD album “Sacra Mental Hypno Drone: Rituals, Revelations & Purification” (deluxe edition) myself. There are only 40 of them. Once I was presented with deer antlers, and when I was finishing the candlesticks, I already knew that in future I would cut on the bone and horn. All the material I order in Siberia, where they undergo a special antiseptic treatment, and come completely ready for carving. I cannot say that I know the face that I will cut. It is unfamiliar to me. It appears gradually, tells his story – who he is, where he came from and why. This process does not depend on me. I would say that the faces of the spirits control my hands so that I can manifest them.

When there were a large number of artefacts, we created the workshop Mist over Wormwood together with Darina Voinova, the co-owner of our Status Prod, label.. Darina is responsible for the design and planetary matching of faces, as well as the creation of jewelry that has a practical and esoteric meaning; I am responsible for the carvings. This creative workshop is now an integral part of the label.

A month ago, to coincide with the Autumn Equinox, you held an exhibition of striking paintings. Named “Spirits Who Wear Masks” the recurring theme of faces was present again. Some skeletal, others ghostly and all rather impressionistic. Over what length of period were they created? Would you elaborate on these visions given form in this body of work and any accompanying themes buried within?

All paintings were created this year, in a fairly short period. In fact, they were created in the same way as amulets. It’s just a different form of display. The picture is a container of the spirit for communication, an amulet for daily help. The spirit manifests itself in the process of work, sometimes others appear behind one face, and then the picture displays many faces. It was not easy to have time to display them all, but I think I did a good job with this task. An exhibition of my works took place in one of the oldest galleries in our city on the day of the Autumn Equinox. Within the framework of the exhibition, I conducted three performances: “Revitalizing the Mask,” “Meditation with Spirits” and “Letting go” – a musical act, revitalizing and revealing each picture, combining a sound canvas with an artistic canvas. The fusion of sound and visual images breathed life into each of more than 40 paintings and miniatures, manifesting its essence, making the viewer see, hear and feel.

During the exhibition, people wanted to buy my paintings in private collections. Therefore, after its completion, I put my paintings up for sale. So, now I am releasing not only music albums, but also my own paintings under the ORD brand.

Can you describe the emotions you channelled at the installation or how the intimate audience reacted to the experience?

As an ORD artist and ORD musician, each performance was a ritual, creating a space outside of place and time, where each external image served as a reflection of the internal, and hidden desires taking on their physical form. Without which the physical body can neither exist nor move, the beginning of a dialogue with the Spirits, the manifestation of the essence of the Mask.

The audience reacted in different ways: someone looked for their images and found them, someone else simply fell into a state of trance, and for others, sounds and images showed the intimate that is usually hidden in the most secret corners of the soul. So the reactions were different, yet no one remained indifferent.

ORD resides at the very core of your being. Ritual sounds, shamanic rhythms and traditional instrumentation blend to create an otherworldly impression. Time out of time. In a bid to better understand your roots, how, where and when did this musical journey begin?

I have come a long way from gothic, through martial to ambient. This is a long, necessary, but difficult path to overcome oneself, experience and spiritual maturation. ORD is a kind of cleansing, a withdrawal into oneself, an opportunity to show the world what am I, of what I am. Of course, the ritual part was always with me, but did not find such full expression in music. When I began to collect musical instruments, from Tibetan singing bowls, bells, overtone flutes to Yakut ritual instruments, when I began to order a variety of modular synthesizers and other noise boxes, then that ORD, which you can see now, was born. Of course, I change, like everything around me and my music with me, but as you very accurately said, ORD is the very core of my being, this is me.

For some eighteenth months now, “Sacra Mental Hypno Drone” has resounded in my home. Early in the morning. Late at night. Often on repeat. Its magnetic pull difficult to describe. Given that it was your first opus, what framework, if any, did you apply in order to achieve maximum impact?

Thank you, I am pleased that you are so hooked on this album. Hope your family doesn’t mind!

If only you knew in what conditions and how this album was created! It was an impulse of the soul, which I tried to express with the help of everything that came to hand and whenever I could, I extracted sounds and recorded them. In the middle of working on the album, I had a heart attack and ended up in the hospital, but even there I was recording sounds and writing poetry, which was very frightening for the staff. Of course, I continued working on the album as soon as I got home. I was carried away and couldn’t think of anything else.

Two versions exist. The second, considerably more limited than the first, contains another disc amongst other bespoke artefacts. Can the primary album be fully understood and appreciated without the latter?

The second version is deeper, even more intimate and fuller. Of course, handmade ritual artefacts: ashes of a ritual fire, stone candlesticks, pine needles are elements of spiritual cleansing, an opportunity to make your journey into the depths of consciousness, understand your essence, understand where to expect help from. The limited edition bonus disc “Rituals & Purification” was written by me at the hospital and is an addition and explanation to the first disc. Now that the limited edition is completely sold out and I’m looking forward to release “Rituals & Purification” as a separate edition in the future.

Ironically enough and quite by chance, it appears that I have been exclusively listening to “Purification’ rather the “Revelation” session that precedes it! Why I was drawn to the omega disc in the first place I cannot say. But given the cyclic nature of these inner journeys do you think my inverse experience of the double album matters?

Apparently, you need more Purification than Revelation. Literally. This is how the world works – we have what we want most, what we need. The wave of liberation and transition to another level of yourself turned out to be more in tune with you now. It makes no difference which path you go; the main thing is that this path leads you to yourself.

Belatedly beginning at the beginning, my impressions are now quite different. Whilst the first movement carries a solemn air, the intensity after the second narration was unexpected! Each consecutive “Revelation” comes in comparable waves. Meditative trances mingle with a medley of arcane instruments Some spells more hypnotic than others. Presence is strong. At the fore and all around. By the fourth piece, it feels like the ritual has moved outside. The flames licking the night sky. If indeed we left the temple at all. Come the fifth and final stage, the wind is howling, the mountains vibrate and it feels like the world will come crashing down to engulf life itself. Would you care to comment on the structure of the compositions and where they were executed?

I recorded sounds at rituals, supplemented and expanded with live musical instruments, and we can say that the structure of the compositions corresponds to the structure of the rituals conducted, but it largely depended on what I played live in the studio.

Often printed lyrics are excluded. But you went a step further to present the beautiful Russian texts in English. Why was it important to reach out to the audience with a glimmer of meaning?

It was important for me to convey the meaning, I wanted the audience to be able to penetrate, immerse themselves and think over. Agree or disagree with me. Much can only be thought about by reading. Then the meaning of what is heard can change, be supplemented by something, or, conversely, purged of what the imagination had attributed to it. All this action is a search for truth, and each has its own process and the truth is also its own. My path can be described with the words that you can read in each edition. Maybe we are going the same way.

Returning to the familiar slopes of “Purification” and the lungful of air being released again and again to the beating drum, there is a palpable freedom of spirit. Restless or rallying. The bells and tambourines coaxing, enticing, encouraging flight through the forest then high above its leafy roof. The shamanic call from below exhilarating. Hear us! See us! What did you feel?

I felt inspiration and decline, a surge of energy and complete disappointment, a rise and fall of the soul. A state of mind that cannot be described in words. How impossible it is to describe in words what the shaman feels during the ritual. You know your path, but until you understand how to go through it, you fall and get up, rejoice and grieve, but you move. Lack of movement is death.

Why were the second, third and fourth movements not directly acknowledged on the double album? Are they some form of earthy post script to the rite of purification?

As I mentioned previously, during the recording of the first album, I had a heart attack. It hurt my health, but it also gave an impetus to the development of my creativity, so I left the hospital with new texts and new ideas.

And in the end, instead of one album, it turned out to be two. It would be strange to release two albums in a row, so we decided to add the songs as a bonus to the deluxe edition of the first untitled album to keep the intrigue. In the future, as I said, we are going to release “Rituals & Purification” as a standalone release.

One of my favourite sequences of the album is a whispered passage set against raging fire and a gentle rhythmic pulse that punctuates the flames. It is particularly potent.  Awe-inspiring. Any comments?

Perhaps you mean just that very personal moment of my experience of the process of purification, the transition to a new level? Cleansing is not as deliverance, but as a moment of salvation. The moment, when any person, whoever he is, feels the essence of life.

This was the fourth album released by the fledgling Status Prod. It remains the most daring in aesthetic presentation. Explain the motivation to remove your creations from common industry and instead invest so much personal handicraft to the finished article?

For those who want to dive deeper into the ritual, follow the same path as me, perhaps it might be interesting to have not only the disc, but also those items that I used during the ritual. By the same principle, the album “Live Fire Meditation” was released with this personal touch. Each handcrafted investment is designed to complement the musical component. Conduct your ritual and draw your own conclusions. For those who like music, but are not interested in the ritual aspect, we made a regular edition that does not involve such investments.

What sacrifices were made to shape and share the forty signature stone candle holders?

The album artwork was, of course, colossal. For several months I carved the candlesticks, then we performed rituals and then spent a month just packing. It wasn’t easy, but the result is worth it. Any creativity is a difficult job, but it brings the deepest sense of satisfaction.

Given the dual format of the album, as soundtrack and art piece suitable for meditation, what level of feedback have you received to date? How much of that comes from inside Russia and beyond?

At first, this album was not very popular, and this is perfectly understandable. A debut by a new and unknown musician released in a luxury edition. But, over time, almost everyone began to order it. Almost a year ago, we gave you the last copy of this edition and took it off sale as sold out, yet orders still continue to come…

The feedback we have begun to receive, only now, has come from completely different people and mainly from abroad. I am very pleased that the audience likes what I do and this, of course, inspires me in my work.

From the outside looking in, 2017 seemed to have been a pivotal year in the development of Status Prod. The roster has been expanding with two or three handcrafted albums presented annually. What was the agreed premise of providing a home to other artists such as Lemna and When The Moon Is In Her Second Quarter? What more can you share about these shadowy entities?

Until 2016, the label was an auxiliary platform for the implementation of our own creative experiments, and since 2017 we decided to approach the work of the label more seriously. At the same time, we began to look for and release third-party musicians. As in any work, there are overlaps and difficulties and several releases never saw the light of day, but the work with the others was quite productive. For example, the leader of the Lemna project was so immersed in creative experiments that he closed the project. So, there will be no more Lemna albums, unfortunately, and now we only have a very small number of copies of this author. WTMIIHSQ, on the other hand, is preparing a new album with me as a guest musician, which will be released very soon. The WTMIIHSQ project is anonymous and even we did not know these ghostly entities for a long time, and I, perhaps, will keep them incognito.

But, in general, we are always open for cooperation with musicians in the genre of dark-ambient, ritual, death-industrial, black-industrial, atmospheric black metal, anything that coincides with the label’s theme.

Hladna was unknown to me yet their back catalogue appears colossal. How did that particular collaborative session happen with ORD? Did you lure this icon out of hermitage for the occasion? Having listened to the session many times, I’m curious to hear any memories you recall from in or around it…

With Koloyar Dreved, the leader of Hladna, we had known each other for a long time in absentia, but met in person shortly before the performance. The idea of a collaborative session came up suddenly, almost before the performance, so the whole session is improvisation. Koloyar took the lead throughout the performance and carried out the ritual, I was more likely an assistant, but this performance, surely, had not to be only heard, but also seen. The audience was in complete trance during the whole session. Then when everyone came to their senses, they did not let us go for a long time, asking questions to delve into the essence of what had just happened to them. Of course, it was a wonderful experience, which I hope Koloyar and I will repeat it again.

Status Prod. has a distinctly customised sound and style. What are your aspirations for the years ahead if indeed you plan so?

The label has a lot of plans, really. However, the situation in the world is making its own adjustments. Let me tell an open secret: in 2020, the pandemic greatly affected the work of all labels, regardless of their focus and standing. The plans have already had to be adjusted, but we will fix the situation. Now there are plans for three new releases in 2021, not only Russian, but also foreign musicians. We are superstitious people, so we will not name names or guess the exact dates. We will, of course, make an announcement in advance when the time is right…

ORD remains very much at its core. Whilst I have not yet absorbed all albums or even approached them chronologically, do you sense any arcs of development, shift in direction or intensification of specific elements over these three or four years? For example, “Avalokiteśvara“ is an intrinsically gentler journey than “Sacral Mental Hypno Drone” albeit undoubtedly created by the same hand…

Yes, of course I do. Life flows, changes and I move with this flow. New stories appear and I try to voice them. This is how albums are born. On the “Kamadarshana” EP, for example, you probably noticed that tribal elements appeared there. I have something else to pleasantly surprise you musically. But, in general, it will be the same ORD, with its own handwriting and its own unchanging rituals.

My copy of your stunning new album came with a cutting of lavender. Its fragrance lingered on my fingers and around my nostrils during that first sitting. Even now, I can recall its aroma. Would you share some reflections on its symbolic significance?

Surely! When we created “Mist over Wormwood,” we already knew that we would use in our work everything that nature gives us. Lavender is the symbol of the Mist, in this case. Thick, sticky, pre-dawn fog, passing through which you gain clarity and purity. Since we make our amulets only from natural materials and in strict planetary conformity, we attach a corresponding plant to each product. It is both a ritual and a kind of signature of our workshop.

That brings us full circle to Mist Over Wormwood. The poetic name given to a sacred place where we experience the unknown. Also a virtual rallying point to reflect upon and celebrate the Wheel of the Year. That ethos has underpinned this very discussion and the life you lead. How significant is this wider community or movement as a gateway?

Of course, Mist over Wormwood is a reflection of the lifestyle that we adhere to. When you enter the ritual of being, you can no longer not be there. We adhere to shamanic rituals, nevertheless, and the Wheel of the Year, in this case, is just a word that names the main milestones of the year so that it is clear what they mean. Some sort of symbol of paganism in the modern world. MoW is a way of broadcasting to the world the way we are going. And a workshop. We make not only amulets, talismans, amulets from bone, horn, stone, but also dream eaters, ritual candles and just jewelry from natural minerals. We write texts and articles, maintain our own lunar calendar, make rituals. So our interests are very broad.

Thank you kindly, Alexey, for taking the time to cast perspective on your many activities. They have stirred forgotten memories and enriched my life. The parting words are yours…

Thanks Danny. I am very pleased to talk to you. I’m glad that I could to tell my story and I hope it was interesting for you. Take care of yourself in any circumstances and look for positive aspects even there, where, it seems, they can no longer be found.

Danny Angus (October 2020 / January 2021)

This interview was originally conducted as part of a previously unpublished series. To be continued…

With their “Different Dirges” demo collection pending imminent release, it seemed timely to dust down this special old feature from the vaults…

England boasts a proud history of bands cutting across many genres. Sadly, in years past, there has been a discernable decline as the greats lapsed into inactivity whilst those that remained failed to rise above mediocrity. However, there are now stirrings in a number of camps that will surely fill said void and put the island back on the map. One such contender is The River. The young quartet released its latest demo earlier this spring prior to embarking on the first foreign live appearance at none other than the prestigious Doom Shall Rise festival. Both their studio and live exploits to date herald a promising future. But now a vacant drum stool threatens to stall their gathering momentum. Curious to discuss the dynamic new material, their burgeoning popularity and where they go next I went in search of the remaining trio.

Vicky, Christian and Stephen you are all very welcome. Tell me, how has life been treating you since we last met? Back to porridge, as they say…

Stephen – Life has been good! Obviously there have been a few down points along the way such as Jon leaving and the search for a new drummer. But apart from that, it’s been cool. We are now just concentrating on the next release and wandering the demo band desert looking for that elusive label.

How did you find Doom Shall Rise III as a musician and fan? What were the highs and lows?

Stephen – I would have to say that Doom Shall Rise III was the best festival I have ever been to. On many different levels, it was a joy to be a part of it, the bands, the people we met, the organisation from all the staff and we can’t leave out the beer!

As a musician I found it amazing, to play to such a crowd where everyone was there for the same reason, the love of all things Doom. Before we played, I was very nervous. But as the set began I got into the swing of things. I’d have to give it to the Germans. They know what they’re doing. If there was a problem the guys backstage were on it straight away.

Obviously there were a few hitches with our performance including the unfamiliar equipment and Chris being ill. But on the whole I think we gave a good account of ourselves. The only low point was it was Jon’s last gig with us. Apart from that, it was a fantastic time had by all!

Did the experience differ significantly to a typical gig in England? Crucially, the festival will have introduced the band to a wider audience. But what kind of feedback did you receive over the weekend and have you had much since?

Stephen – I think the main difference was the crowd numbers. In England, the crowds can be very fickle. You do get your die-hards, who always make putting on a gig worthwhile. But it’s a real shame when you get someone like The Gates Of Slumber or Slough Feg coming over to play to small crowds.

In Germany, we made a lot of new friends, sold a lot of demos and got a fair amount of good reviews from our performance so we were happy with that!

For those less fortunate souls, The River is still relatively unknown at this early stage in your career. Please introduce the band as you see fit. How and when did you come together? Did you have a specific vision you intended to explore? Has it changed since you embarked on this journey?

Chris – We actually formed in 1999 as a continuation of a friend’s band that Steve and I had played in, which split when the singer joined the army. We recorded two demos between that date and 2002 although they were not spread too far outside our community of friends for various reasons. The band members at the time, unfortunately, were happier playing music that sounded exactly like their favourite bands without any of their own identity and didn’t really care for putting in any hard work to promote The River. So after they left, Steve and I set about recording ‘Oneiric Dirges in Mono’ in 2003 with myself handling drums and guitars, and Steve handling bass. We roped in my friend Vicky to do the vocals and thus The River of today was born! We found Jon to play the drums after he left Unsilence and moved south. We then began playing live in 2004. We played some very good gigs and spread the name very far in a very short space of time. However, Jon had to leave after recording ‘Different Ways to Be Haunted’ due to family commitments, leaving us as a trio again.

We’ve never really had a vision of that we wanted to explore. Our intention was simply to be a seriously heavy Doom band but not at the expense of writing a decent song. Sonically, we love low-tuned guitars and feedback. But we also adore a beautifully sung lyric & melody so I guess if The River did have a vision to explore, the juxtaposition of brutal riffs and tender harmonies would be it!! We haven’t changed our outlook at all since we started. With a bit of luck, hopefully, we’re improving!

The River is an intriguing name. It suggests motion and perhaps life-giving properties. How does this natural symbol represent the band?

Chris – There was no other reason to name the band The River than simply we liked it. It also had no connotations. Therefore, people would judge the music after hearing it rather than having a preconceived idea of what we’re about. Having thought about it a bit though, it does suit us fairly well. A river can be dirty and brutal yet it can also be clear & beautiful. It’s sometimes slow yet sometimes fast moving. It’s constantly progressing yet it’s never unrecognisable as a river. These are traits we try to include in our music as well so in that respect I guess it represents the band quite nicely!

There is also an inherent connectivity between a source and a destination. Where do you think The River fits in the grand scheme, if indeed there is one?

Chris – In a physical sense, as you say, a river always has a source and a destination. It provides home and security to a wide array of wildlife, which is very important to the grand scheme of things. Whether, as a band, we could ever hold such a lofty position and be seen as that vital or important to the music world as our namesake in the natural world I don’t know!

Well, my congratulations! Your current offering, “Different Ways To Be Haunted” is a refreshing slab of music. The signature touches are developing. The song writing and performance certainly strike me as more confident. How then do you rate demo? Do you feel that you are now beginning to realise that vision?

Chris – Ta very much! We’re all still very proud of the demo as we are of everything we’ve recorded. There are obviously things we would change given more time and money. But that’s just nit-picking on my behalf! The main reason we came on so well between “Oneiric Dirges…” and “Different Ways…” was that we had Jon on drums. Being able to play live and actually rehearse as a proper band rather than being the doom skiffle band we were before he joined meant we had more time to work on arrangements and melodies than we were previously used to. Certainly having the experience of being a full band meant that we were definitely more confident when writing and recording “Different Ways…” no doubt about it! Although Jon is no longer part of the band, his contribution has been invaluable and we’re at a stage now where we have a very strong musical vision and know exactly where we’re headed. I believe we’ve pretty much got ourselves The River sound and we just need to work on continually improving it.

In my eyes, the three songs form a cohesive unit without lacking diversity. But I have a sneaking suspicion that “Broken Window” was penned first as it seems more in keeping with “Oneric Dirges In Mono”… Is there any truth in that or is it merely coincidental?

Chris – Yep, “Broken Window’” is the oldest song on “Different Ways…” and it just missed being recorded for “Oneiric Dirges..” which I’m now quite glad of as it has changed a fair bit over time before getting to the stage it’s at on “Different Ways…”. The vocal lines and first two riffs are pretty much the only things that stayed the same. “White Library” was written not long after it and “A Close Study” was the newest song. It was only finished about a month before we recorded it. We put them on in newest to oldest order because “Broken Window” was the out and out Doom one whereas “White Library” was the more left of field one. “A Close Study” has some outright Doom riffs but also something a bit different in it. We put it first to set the tone for what lay ahead basically!

On the previous outing, Chris penned the lyrics and Vicky sang them. Has that formula remained as it was? Vicky, will you be playing an increasingly larger role creating as well as performing them as your confidence grows?

Vicky – Chris is still writing the lyrics, mainly because he’s far better at it than I am! It’s not a lack of confidence that stops me. It’s just there’s a better man for the job.

Each of the new song titles hinge on physical space. Is that emphasis deliberate?

Chris – Not really, it’s just a co-incidence! Thinking about it, it is easier to pinpoint something you can physically see to get a point across than to get all wordy and have people not understand what you’re getting at. It also helps to set up a story and set a scene when you’re writing I guess, be it lyrics, poetry or the chapters of a book. In all honesty, I hadn’t spotted it until you mentioned it!

Loneliness, heartache and a lack of confidence figure quite prominently in the lyrics. Are they intended to be universal or do they relate to specific experiences? Do you find singing about them to be cathartic?

Chris – A bit of both! “A Close Study’” and “Broken Window” have elements of loneliness and a lack of confidence in them as they are definitely things I suffer from at times although I see them as obstacles to overcome rather than things to whinge about and hopefully the lyrics come across in this way. The heartache end of it I presume you’re thinking “White Library” specifically. The lyrics were written simply because Vicky said she enjoyed lyrics about relationships. They’re actually my least favourite set of lyrics I think they’re too wimpy although Vicky makes them sound better than they are. They are definitely not about any of my ex-girlfriends! I would not flatter someone I’ve split up with by writing a song about them! However, a lot of people really like them and reckon they can relate to them so they’re good in that respect. On the whole the lyrics are based mainly on my own specific experiences but hopefully written in such a way that people can relate them to anything they want!

Vicky – It’s not quite cathartic for me, as they’re not my words. I can relate to them, understand them and I certainly enjoy singing them But I’m not so much getting things off my chest as helping Chris get them off his!

Ever since I first heard mention of The River emphasis has been placed on your vocals and there have been frequent comparisons to Mourn. But bar gender and nationality, I think there is probably little common ground. Mind you, it must help distinguish the sound of the band in a predominantly male genre. What do you think?

Chris – Mourn was a great band and in actual fact, their “For Evermore” cassette was the first demo I ever bought. However, I agree with you that there are very little similarities in the sound and if the only reason we get compared to them is the fact we have a female singer it shows how naïve some people can be! Caroline Wilson and Vicky have very separate singing voices in my opinion. Besides, you wouldn’t compare Wino to Messiah Marcolin just because they’re both blokes, would you?! Having said all that, there are far worse bands to be compared to. I’d just rather we were both in the category of good music than the category of Doom bands with bird singers!

Unfortunately, you were unable to record a fourth song, “A Relation To Absence” that was intended for the demo as you ran out of time, and presumably money, in the studio. Would you be able to give us an insight into the lyrics and music?

Chris – “A Relation to Absence” is actually a three minute song with no distorted guitars on it! It’s kind of up-tempo by our standards and quite different although ultimately still The River. It will be recorded in the near future, have no fear! Lyrically, it’s about missing out on life’s simple pleasures through no fault of your own but trying to plough ahead regardless.

It was no secret that Jonathan would be vacating the drum stool after Doom Shall Rise III due to changing family commitments. In one sense, it is a shame as his drumming helped define the new songs and his talents will be missed. How is he settling in up north and how is the band coping without having him around?

Stephen – Jonathon is now the father of a baby boy named Sammy. He and Regan are very happy and proud parents. We wish them nothing but the best for the future.

We’re coping at the moment with rehearsals and recording. Mind you, it was a hell of a lot easier when he was here. We’re missing playing live! Hopefully, someone will turn up soon to fill the empty drum stool.

The band appears undeterred, as you have already confirmed that the debut album will be recorded early next year even if you have not recruited a full-time drummer or secured a label deal. The latter is certainly not as crucial as it once was. Please elaborate on your plans. Do you then have a sense that the timing feels right?

Chris – We’ve been going for six years now and have recorded four demos. We pretty much feel it’s time to get off the pot now if you know what I mean! Enough people have shown an interest in hearing an album and one of the nicer criticisms we generally get is that the demos seem to leave people wanting to hear more. I think we’re at a stage now where we need to do an album because recording another demo would seem almost like admitting defeat or showing we don’t have enough faith in our music. If we haven’t got a new drummer by the beginning of next year I’ll play the drums and guitar again like I did on “Oneiric Dirges…” Finding a label is going to be the hard part, particularly if we still haven’t got a drummer by then, as we won’t be able to promote the recording by playing live. We are actively searching for a label at present though and hopefully it will all come into place sooner rather than later. We’ve had a bit of interest even though we haven’t finished sending “Different Ways…” to the various labels out there so time will tell I guess! Whatever happens, the album is going to be recorded in the first few months of 2006 and will be titled “Drawing Down The Sun”. It’s going to have seven songs on it and is pretty much a continuation of “Different Ways…” with some new ideas chucked in for good measure!

Whatever happened to the proposed split 7” with Cambian Dawn? When do you foresee your songs making their way on to hallowed wax?

Chris – The split was due to be released via COTD records but unfortunately the funding wasn’t there to get the singles pressed. 7”s are bloody pricey it has to be said! Again though, we’re looking for a label to release it as we speak and if the worst comes to the worst, we’ll probably have a whip round between the two bands to get the money together and release it ourselves. I think both songs are too good to waste and the opportunity to release a vinyl is not one I’m passing up! As to when it is released, the sooner the better I reckon!

Given that the band has enjoyed a progressively higher profile live in the past twelve months do you foresee it continuing as an integral part of your development? If you had a free reign, where would you like to play and with whom would you share the stage?

Chris – As far as I’m concerned, you’re not a proper band unless you can get out there and play live. It really breaks my heart that at the moment we can’t do it! We were flying high with the amount of gigs we were being offered and it’s such a shame that we’re no longer in that position. We’ve been very lucky with the gigs we have had. Our profile and demo sales were getting higher all the time. We definitely became a much better band from gigging it has to be said. Until we get a new drummer, though we’re knackered on the live front! If we had the choice, it really wouldn’t matter where we play although I have to say I like travelling abroad! At Doom Shall Rise we played with a lot of bands that we would have loved to have seen let alone shared a stage with! Mirror Of Deception, Warning, Isole, The Gates Of Slumber, Pale Divine and Place Of Skulls are all bands I’d gladly share a bill with again! Actually when we do get the drummer situation resolved, the first shows we’re likely to play are with Warning, which is something we’re really looking forward to. We’ve also played with Reverend Bizarre and would like to do so again. As for bands we haven’t played with, there’s Orodruib, Solstice, Revelation and Thee Plagure Of Gentlemen… The list is endless! There are bands outside the Doom & Metal scenes that I personally would love to play with but I can’t see the proposed Lynyrd Sknyrd, PJ Harvey and The River bill ever going ahead!

How would you describe the atmosphere amongst English bands, the press, promoters and the general punters? Is there a tangible scene? Have you noticed any significant changes in the underground over the past five to ten years?

Stephen – The atmosphere amongst the English scene is good. It’s difficult in London because there’s an “in” crowd but the rest of the country’s fine. The bands help each other out when they can with gigs, promoting and information, which is a healthy attitude to have when the scene is not as big as others. The up side is you don’t get as many arseholes and fakes as other scenes.

Some people in the press will highlight Doom bands but they are few and far between. There was a Doom special in a new UK magazine called Zero Tolerance which featured bands like Black Sabbath, Revelation, The Gates Of Slumber, Reverend Bizarre, Centurion’s Ghost amongst others, which is quite unheard of these days. The crowds can be hit and miss but those who do show up make it worth while.

There are a few new bands breaking through such as Iron Hearse, Cambian Dawn, Centurion’s Ghost, and our good selves of course, and there are bands that have established themselves already, namely, Solstice, Warning, Pagan Altar, Solomon Kane, Unsilence and Tefra. Hopefully there will be more in the future.

Do you hold a wider interest in the performing arts or culture? Do you think alternative movements have an impact on the band?

Chris – Not to any great extent really. I’ve only ever been to the theatre when I was on school trips but that was a long time ago now! Museums and the like get visited occasionally but not with any sort of regularity. It’s not that we don’t have any appreciation for the more cultured way of life. It just rarely crops up on our things to do list. We’re not particularly refined I’m afraid. We’re a pork pie, beer, football and game of darts down the pub kind of band!

There is a somewhat foreboding yet subtle atmosphere at the very core of your creation. Have any such legends or folk tales been absorbed into your collective persona? If so, are there any you would recommend as an accompaniment to the music?

Chris – Again, not really! There are plenty of myths and stories in English folklore that are interesting, whether it be the Druids at Stonehenge, King Arthur, the witches of the Middle Ages or the haunting of Borley Rectory and we do have an interest in such things. However, I doubt we would ever represent anything like this with our music simply because we prefer to write about more personal issues. But I do agree that our music would lend itself favourably to such topics though.

If The River was a painting what would it represent?

Stephen – It would be a picture of dogs playing snooker in a pub with a dartboard in the background and some pints of bitter on the bar! That is after all pretty much the natural environment for members of The River!

Please share your thoughts on the following:

Death: Chris – I grew up listening to “Scream Bloody Gore” and “Human” and was definitely a bit upset when Chuck left us. It comes to us all I guess!

Atheism: Stephen – I think it’s a bit of a cop out really. It’s like waiting to see who wins the FA Cup before you support them! Although I don’t really believe in most organized religion anyway, I do respect them apart from any type of extremist and born-again Christians who are just wrong in general! In my view, you have to stick with something to make it worth while.

Reincarnation: Chris – Sometimes when you’re having a hard time of it you do tend to wonder about karma and what you did in a previous life it has to be said! But I’m not sure about the spirit finding a new home as it were although I do believe in & have an interest in ghosts and ghouls. If I was reincarnated, knowing my luck I’d come back as me!

Agnosticism: Stephen – I think you’ve got to have something to believe in. Whether it’s a God or an idea of a higher power you would think there’s more to life than what can be scientifically or physically proven. At the end of the day, I think we do go on to a better place otherwise the human race would be a right shower of bastards with no consequence to their actions.

Eternity: Chris – It doesn’t have the same effect on the ladies as a splash of Brut, in my experience!

Finally, if you could ask me a question, what would it be?

Chris – Lemmy & God are having an arm wrestle, who wins?! Just kidding!

Trick question! Lemmy is God…

What is your opinion on the current glut of bands, not just in the Doom scene, but in Thrash, Death and Heavy Metal in general that are reforming? Is it a case of the time being right for these bands or are they just riding the nostalgia wave to increase their bank balances, pay for the divorce and put the kids through college?

Yes, it certainly has become commonplace and I must admit that I have half been expecting some bodies to be exhumed in a bid to restore original line-ups. Perhaps the science is not there just yet. Anyway, timing is everything and who knows what really motivates folk to come out of retirement. It happens in all professions. I remember a vice principal retiring three times over and he kept coming back on a voluntary basis. If it’s in your blood it’s in your blood. The same is true of music and the frauds will stand out like a sore thumb. The unexpected return of Count Raven was a real godsend. Their moving performance at Doom Shall Rise remains a cherished memory. It is also marvellous to see Elixir and Pagan Altar back where they belong. They sound fresh too! As for the rest, time will tell…

The time has come to depart. Thank you for your presence at this sacred place. May your path be clear and bright! The closing words are yours…

Chris – Thanks for the interview and all your help thus far. Hopefully the answers we’ve given aren’t too boring in comparison to the well-thought out questions! Keep an eye out for the new material around the first half of next year. If anyone hasn’t heard us before and wants to buy or trade demos then please get in touch. T-shirts are available too!

Web: https://riverbanduk.bandcamp.com

Danny Angus
July 2005

Seldom will an exclusive interview be published online before it has graced the pages of Pariah Child. But for this very special artist I’m prepared to make an exception. From humble roots way back in 1988, Tony Tears has blossomed with aplomb. A living, breathing embodiment of the Italian Dark Sound, the catalogue is as stunning as it is diverse. With an EP and full-length album released in little over the last twelve months, the band has just entered the studio again to record their next LP. To celebrate and reflect upon this hive of activity, Antonio spent a couple of long evenings casting a little light and shade on his evolving esoteric path…

Welcome Antonio, to the shadowy realm of Pariah Child. Artistic minds are often considered to be troubled. Would that be true for you?

Hi Danny, thanks for the invitation in Pariah Child. Yes, definitely. I consider myself a person who lives on art and artists are all a bit problematic or if we prefer “a little crazy”. In my art forms, the one that most represents me is definitely music. I come from a family of musicians and poets.

As a child, were you more attracted to the mediums of drawing and painting or creating music?

There have always been artists in my family. My paternal grandfather wrote poems, my father is a painter and was a great guitarist. He played in Rome in the golden years of Italian music. I mainly took up music from my father. Also painting. So, I would say that the form of art that most represents me is definitely music.

How did your fascination with artistic expression develop as you grew?

It was a spontaneous path. When I was very young I liked to draw, and the drawings that came to my mind were things related to imaginary landscapes, mystical creatures and things like that. Over time, my maternal great-grandmother, believed to be a country healer (well known in Abruzzo), realized that I was a child with some particular “gifts”. She told my mother I had mediumistic skills. In the meantime, while I was advancing in mediumistic drawing, I was starting to take guitar lessons from my father. I was 11 years old. It was actually the guitar and music I preferred to do. I realized that this was my true art form. However, over the years I carried on with both. Let’s say that drawing (today oil painting) is more of a personal form of mediumship; that is, to “materialize” what certain Entities teach and communicate to me. The same is also true with music of course. They are two different but equally mediumistic art forms. I like painting because it is intimate and solitary; the other (music) is more to be followed and in a group (for this purpose more demanding) but music, once made, it’s the best for me. There is also another form of art that I have been doing since I was 6 years old: martial arts. This always helped me to develop self-control and a development of inner energies that serve me a lot also in my esoteric life. Everything has gone hand in hand over the years.

Why were you (and why are you still) driven to create? Is the urge unexpected with unseen force or are you a master of destiny expelling inner visions as and when you see fit?

I lead a fairly reserved life. In fact, I don’t like social media. They are present, but I don’t spend much time there. The main reason is because I love real life; in contact with nature and with certain forces that I have always been able to perceive. On a low level, they are often considered to be larvae, or troubled souls of the dead and the like. For some time now, I must have contacted some evolved Entity; perhaps thanks (also) to some successful magical practices. So, I will not be here to say with who knows what torments (because it is not true) but I have seen the results of these rites and fortunately with very positive implications. This means that the tormented Entities always intrude and in the past I have made some mistakes, in some cases it can be dangerous, but I have reached a level of preparation that these low “Entities” can come away with little. So, I follow “teachings” of Masters who often confirm me in everyday life. Universal masters who go far beyond the conception of the man of good and evil; they could be the face of the same coin. I put their teachings and (tangible) confirmations into music. It can be said that I follow what they tell me but above all what they make me live, and since the messages should be transmitted, I pour their communications (or teachings) into my music. The concept that could be the face of the same coin, is my belief, and derives from the fact that, in years of studies (and practices) I have always stumbled upon books where even certain Demonic Entities could be controlled (not easily) to solve personal issues yes, but also for the sake of other people; very special books on magic. I compared them with other knowledge such as Allan Kardec’s books on Spiritism; I am quite attached to the spiritual concept of Kardec (not only to him anyway) and if at the beginning it seemed different from some magical things, studying it in more detail I understood that in reality it could contain issues that also centred on demonic Entities and other Entities that can be evoked with Practical Magic. What may lead you astray on Kardec, is that its first-run philosophy may seem a little too religious but if you are very careful you will notice that it is not so. Many high Entities in his books say they had to speak that religious way because otherwise many people wouldn’t understand, and that says a lot. The very concept of Duality in universal forces (which everyone can call whatever they want) is a real question and is truly lost in the mists of time; it happened in the first Egyptian dynasties with the concepts of Red Dragon (Ra Hoor Kwiut) and Black Dragon (Hoor Paar Kraat) which is the opposite side to the Red Dragon, that is its Entity opposed (but face of the same coin) from these ancient concepts the religions have taken (all) something and incorrectly rewritten. So, Kardec’s philosophy applied to ritualistic magic (trying to make it as correct as possible) is the path I have been traveling for many years and it has led me to firmly believe in certain things and to bring them to music; most of the time they are the ones who tell me what to do; besides it is I who decide what to do. I would say 50% of the two.

How does this process of creation help maintain your psychological balance?

Even if it is not easy to control certain Entities, in the past I have suffered and erred a lot but today I have perfected these matters and I can only do constructive things. This means that I can pass from being a calm and positive person to something opposite; in spite of this, I manage to be fairly balanced and the music, once I have made my album, it is like a seal, I can perceive its magical and particular essence, there is truly something that goes beyond music. This helps me to channel energy better and to give me a beautiful artistic balance but also of life. There are three aspects that in my life are indivisible by now, they are: the Esoteric experiences, the Music and the realization of these two things (linked together) to live life in a total and balanced way.

To what extent has this relationship changed over the years as you have become older and dare I say wiser?

I could say after being initiated by my great grandmother at the age of 15. But I do not want to be accused as someone who exaggerates or who invents goodness knows what story, so sorry I will try to keep it brief. At the time I was already doing some spiritualist séances and I was wrong. I was persecuted by certain Entities that frightened me. I was very young then, it took a few years to get those Entities out of my way. One person literally saved my life. From there, instead of giving up and abandoning certain subjects, I deepened them and slowly resumed practicing. Even after correcting myself, I made some mistakes, but minor ones compared to the past. I understood that spiritualism could be practiced (with greater results) in a different and less risky way by doing other mediumistic forms compared to spiritualist séance. I dedicated more time also to Magic, which is equally important and in a certain sense linked to the first. I started everything at 12. At 15, there was a mistake of mine, I recovered and started doing things in the right way between 20/25 years; but as my great-grandmother said to me, I was predisposed for certain things from birth. In my life I have been initiated into the esoteric world three times (even if it would be enough once). the first time since my great-grandmother when I was 15 years old (very young), the second and third time in more recent times by two important people; one is a Master who has special gifts, very mediumistic and Reiki, the other a Master of Magic and Demonology (and everything that is more related to the esoteric Magical world). As you can see, it’s not a game for me and I’ve always believed in it. You will have noticed (and it is no coincidence) that it is already twice, even in the previous question that the number “3” returns in the most important things in my life; this is proof that certain forces are always there (even at this time). In fact, the Esoteric Magical Master just mentioned above, revealed to me that my vibratory number was “3” and that I had to notice in my life how important it was; a vibratory Entity is associated with it (let’s call it that), that’s all on this question. Believe me, I have not exaggerated anything, in fact, I have minimised.

Your sixth album, “Demons Crawl At Your Side” explores the themes of possession, madness and torment through demonology, film and art. Why does this fascinate you so?

“Demons Crawl At Your Side” was made in a period where I was “attacked” first hand. You must understand that when you have known certain forces and have been in some way part of it (even with mistakes of the past) when you improve yourself and as much as you come out of it, you become even more sensitive and receptive. At that time, I saw and felt these (unfortunately negative) Entities around people; I breathed their nefarious energy and they on several occasions made me understand that the very fact that I perceived them bothered them. When you feel these things, it happens that people, on the street (led by these Entities) challenge you, annoy you, and commit all sorts of things that can lead the human being to commit from the most annoying thing, even, to atrocities. It was an experience that led me to believe that (especially today) possessions are real and take place in a subtle way (even when we don’t notice it). It is not necessary that a person necessarily has to vomit green, blaspheme, and twist to suffer a possession. Certain dark forces feed on the ignorance and indifference (superficiality) that the human being has towards them. Many schools of spiritualist thought maintain that in order to remove certain negative forces one must be indifferent to them. I don’t totally agree. What is certain is that if one knows it can prevent, knowledge leads to shielding itself, vice versa, no, because you become vulnerable. I know, an exaggeration may appear; because then all people should be interested in these things, but in reality it would be enough to understand. The fact is that unfortunately today people don’t want to understand. It’s not nice to understand, better to live in a caged world. This generates true evil, true possessions. So, “Demons Crawl At Your Side” is a very painful, dark, but equally Heavy Metal album. I’m proud of it because the mix of everything I’ve done better in my project and band since 1988 (year of foundation) is just right. The choice of the inserts taken from the films: “The Exorcism of Emily Rose”, “Demoni”, “Devil Dog” and “Omen III” were intended to make the atmosphere that permeated the album more sinister and real. I can guarantee you that the choice of these films is less superficial than it seems. These films reflect real facts, and also reflect the ambiguity of real evil. Actually I am fascinated by the esoteric search for man; the positive aspect of Darkness, since Darkness also has its positive end. However, being involved in certain things, when you come across negative energies that attach themselves to indifferent (negative) beings and are attacked by them, you cannot help talking about it. Based on what happened to me (and it often happens) I made a painful Album, a seal (for me and for those who know how to get into it) because I fought against these forces. “Demons Crawl At Your Side” is a fair balance between Italian Dark Sound and Dark Music in the true sense of the word. A complete album and one that has been lived.

Trauma comes in many forms. What is your earliest traumatic memory?

In spite of the esoteric events I already described, my first trauma arose from another matter. You must know that I have a congenital disease that even if it is a nonsense, it was something that was noticeable as a child and was for a short time a cause of suffering (or trauma if you prefer). This “disease” is Microtia, a deformation of the auricle of the left ear, the same that Paul Stanley of Kiss has (among other things, I love Paul Stanley as a guitarist, as well as Kiss). As a child, as I said, for a very short time this deformation was noticeable and I knew the first forms of human malice, the other children (but often also “adults”) made fun of me. I remember that we ended up in many fights, but then I suffered a lot and cried. As soon as I grew up (shortly after) I didn’t care anymore, I realized very soon, that nature had deigned me with a fairly pleasant aspect and that I didn’t miss my first girlfriends and satisfying human relationships. As soon as I came of age, I began a series of surgeries which led me to have a practically normal ear within several years. Today, little is known and thank God, I wear my almost 48 years very well. So, there are no more traumas. However, as a child for a very short period I suffered a lot.

Mental health has really only become a bigger issue in the public consciousness in recent times. For some though, it remains taboo. How has Italian society coped under the rule of the Church and State?

As I said before, when talking about “Demons Crawl At Your Side”, the wider population (including Italy) for several years now, prefers to live in an illusion. In a world that runs fast and doesn’t want to stop. Years ago I made an experimental Dark Sound Album entitled “Vortice” and yes, it spoke of the Mayan prophecy, for many this prophecy did not come true, falling into error because in 2011 the axis of the earth (if only very little) moved, this shift made many things change both materially and also psychically . From there, human beings did not take anything into consideration, did nothing to understand, and began a real free descent towards all kinds of sufferings (climatic, violence, up to reaching viruses, the last one COVID19) and everything is tied together. The saddest and truly malignant thing (the only real evil existing in the world) is that the “powerful”, the political class and even the church are the cause of these things, for the simple reason that many know but for various reasons (including economic interest) they want to keep them hidden. However, by now, many things are before everyone’s eyes and (if you want) if the human beings were more united, united between the “simple” and “common” people, the powerful class (clergy and politicians) could not ignore us. However, that’s just what they don’t want. I am of the idea that even they are possessed by the one true and authentic evil. I never believed in the speech of conspiracy theorists that the powerful “use” occult powers (occult in the true sense of the word) only as an excuse to ask for political purposes and for money. The money god is more important to them. Although I agree with the fact that politicians and the church itself is interested in the God of Money, for me, there is something much bigger and less rational behind all this, I am convinced.

Speaking of troubled minds, how and when did you discover the works of Alfred Kubin? Please elaborate on the lure that draws you in…

I met him in a book of art that my father owned. Although he has always done it out of passion, my father is a very good painter. He has had several requests to sell his paintings in some exhibitions but always refused. Anyway, I realized immediately, looking at the works of Alfred Kubin, that he was a “visionary”, or rather: he saw things as I think they really are. In his works the world of dark figures mixes with man’s atavistic fears until he lives with them and they are made to appear almost like a normal thing and not entirely to be feared. The real terror is to let these same figures take you somehow. A bit like saying that the figures of an unknown world are there. They observe you. If you want to live with them you become a unique world. If you are afraid of them they can drive you crazy and lead to death before your hour. You will have already noticed (if you noticed) the similarity of what I saw in his works and the album “Demons Crawl At Your Side”. Initially one of his works “The God of the Snakes” was to be the main cover of the album, but then we opted to use our photo with the masks and we put this artwork inside the CD. I really like his creations.

The painting adorning the reverse of the album sleeve is by no means his most grotesque or unnerving. Whether it’s a demon haunting or a tortured soul almost pleading, I cannot say with certainty. The line is blurred. How does the image resonate with you?

The figure is clearly a Monster (or a Demon if we want). If you observe the fingers, his hands are pointed and are placed in a position that seems to want to launch an attack on those who are observing him. The rest of his body is like a giant crawling snake body. His face, however, seems to hint at a smile.

It’s that expression that I find so ambiguous!

So, in me, it has always seemed like something with a human face that tries to please but that at the right time, crawling next to us, can launch a deadly attack. All this represents society, as it is in its majority, that is, possessed and always ready to act under the influence of these true negative forces. I saw in that work everything that could represent the meaning and deep meaning of the album.

And what are your thoughts on “The Other Side” by Kubin and the way in which his nightmarish novel dips into the subconscious?

I don’t like to tell lies (if not strictly forced) and I never magnify things. On the contrary, I tend to simplify things that really happened to me. Therefore, I will tell you that I am not a great reader of novels. For heaven’s sake, I don’t deny that they contain funds of truth, but personally I prefer books and real culture over novels. I read some novels I read from the classics of E.A. Poe to those of “Carmilla” by Sheridan Le Fanu, “Dracula” by Bram Stoker, the ancient novels about Ghosts and so on….
As for Kubin’s “The Other Side”, my singer told me about it and I must say that it is in line with my esoteric thoughts. I like the way of describing these worlds that man initially sees as dangerous but then in the end they are truer and less dangerous than man himself. Indeed, the man in these worlds seems like an intruder, fantastic! But I know Alfred Kubin more for his works of drawings and paintings.

It’s intriguing that your front cover depicts the band in demonic masks and on the back cover you are all unmasked. Are you deliberately tapping into the different faces of madness? Possession? Schizophrenia?

You see, today, many bands (besides make-up) have started using masks; I could name a lot of band names, but one thing I’m enormously proud of is that we Tony Tears used them first. In the year of foundation and the first demo “Strane Sensazioni” (in 1988) there was already the photo with my mask. I was 15 years old and already a lover of Rock / Metal music. I followed a lot both the Italian scene and the foreign one, thanks also to my older brother (who kept me updated with the Italian bands) I must say that there was really no one who used the masks, only Tony Tears. Even if someone can say that ours was a project still in its infancy, I say that in any case I already existed. What does a young project or young band have to do with it!? Even Death SS (if we go to see it) from 1977 to 1987, until the release of the anthological record of Minotauro Records did five concerts (if I remember correctly) and a couple of semi-official demos, let’s say that even if the name spread much in the area of Romagna and around; then little was known about them. Still, time has given it back its historical merits, and today we know that Death SS have unique make-up and they are a unique band in the world (for skill and historicity!). Their definitive crowning which consecrated them was from the album “In Death of Steve Sylvester”. I took them as an example because they are (of course) among my favourite bands ever. I love the old and new Death SS! My story (our story as Tony Tears) is very similar in some ways to that of Death SS. In 1988 I had made my first demo (inside it there was the photo of the very first mask…) therefore, without a shadow of doubt, the first Band in Italy to use the mask and not the classic make-up was us! By now, fortunately, in Italy and abroad among those who follow the genre, (and having now made several official albums) it has become known the truth about the Tony Tears masks.
This preamble on the History of the Masks of the Tony Tears it was necessary. For us, the masks are a very heartfelt thing, and I have to take a small step back in telling you that, thanks to my culture (but also practices) linked very much to Spiritism by Allan Kardec and also from other schools and forms of thought I have always firmly believed (since a young man) in life after death; although I am convinced that the life we are living (living now!) is equally important. Indeed, it is from living the present that the great reparation of our Soul starts. Precisely because the soul has a great free will (as well as man in material life) every Tony Tears mask is destined to change. Over the years, between used masks (at least twenty), the unofficial ones (made but used very little) I have created fifty different models of masks (the average of one per year since I was born …). In addition, I designed another hundred never used. The masks in Tony Tears, as I said, are changeable, because every Tony Tears Album is changeable, each of our periods is changeable, the Magic itself is changeable, the soul is changeable (especially the soul). Hence, in Tony Tears the mask always represents and will represent our changing Soul, because this is the way, in the world parallel to matter, that Extrasensory world (both of souls who reincarnate but also of already existing evolved Entities). So, for me (for us), our masks are what we truly believe in, our true face, our true experience and life condition. However, precisely because we truly believe in what we do, we have never hidden our true face; just like in “Demons Crawl At Your Side”. This decision has the significance of the fact that, with or without a mask, we (the human being) always have “hidden” sides which, if not accepted and elaborated, can lead him to madness and his death (before the times foreseen by the Karma). So, this condition will not lead him to a healthy madness (the artistic madness in being different from the mass of ignorant so to speak, that would be a healthy madness…) but an anguished madness, of fear, of torment. The more man rejects certain things that his soul claims, the more he is forced to fight you one day. It is inevitable. Understanding them as soon as possible and accepting them, understanding them, helps a lot. Here is explained the fact that, as much as we use our masks, we do not hide our true face; whether we use them or not, we are always ourselves. We are True. Always!

Please elaborate on the creation of your masks. Which materials have been used? How much preparation was required to make a mask? From the fifty pieces, have any been particularly important representations of your evolving self?

The preparation comes from sketches on drawing. After that, I purchase masks from any theatrical shopkeeper. The masks, therefore, are very simple materials. They can range from (classic) plastic or papier-mâché ones. The latter are certainly more professional, but not easy to find. The colour must represent the soul, therefore, from the first mask of 1988 up to those used to date, I chose white and black. White is the sum of all colours. In an esoteric sense, therefore, for me, white represents the experience of all reincarnations up to absolute purification. The black masks, on the other hand, are the absence of light. In an esoteric sense, it represents the black soul who, having had no light (light in the sense of spiritual search in life, or a life devoted to true evil), pays the consequences also as a soul, retracing the same sufferings in the Soul. The concept of Black may appear similar to White (in a certain sense it is) but, nevertheless, it has a meaning more than souls (or Entities) linked to the earth and in a certain sense more “rebellious”. In any case, the choice of one or the other of the two “colours” is often chosen for an aesthetic taste combined with a design to be used on the masks and not specifically linked to the meaning of the two “colours”. (Black and white are not even colours). There is no fixed rule in choosing a colour or a mask model, they represent Change. Change in the meaning of each album. As each musical album is different, the Mask is different too. In the past (on some rare occasions), on some album there was no photo with the mask. However, there was also a mask dedicated to that album. For many years I applied to my masks only paints (acrylics) with drawings of tears. Even if, at first glance these tears seemed the same, from observing each other you should understand that they were different in the design (and also in the meaning). Over time, improving my techniques on pictures, I also improved the operating techniques on masks, and in more recent times, I also applied clay objects to them. For example, the type of mask used for “Demons Crawl At Your Side” which is certainly one of the most beautiful models ever made. Obviously, since the masks in the Tony Tears are changeable for each album (for a meaning of Occultism and Esotericism) I have never made expensive masks. However, I have always tried to make them as professional as possible. For the latest “solo” album, the Darker Progressive Electronic “The Wail of the Elements” I chose a beautiful Steampunk mask (one of the first science fiction forms born in the Victorian era). I chose this because it aptly represented the human being who tries to evolve until he reaches a point of no return, just as it is happening (really) between man and nature. The Steampunk mask chosen for “The Wail of the Elements” (for example) has not been retouched or modified. I liked it as it was, and I used it without changing it. It was the first case in my entire discography and since the Tony Tears project exists (1988) that this has happened. In other words, to make you understand, there is no fixed rule in the choice of masks.
The time of realization, usually can go from a week to almost two. Again, it depends, if the masks are only painted. Usually a couple of days are enough for the draft of the drawing, and five days to paint the masks, even several times over, in order to give the right colour chroming. Instead, if (besides carrying out what I have just said) I have to add objects with clay, or objects of all kinds, the time doubles and it goes to almost two weeks. Sure, the choice of masks is made on the basis of a belief strongly linked to my esoteric experience and it is not a sham; as someone does (and tries to copy us without admitting it). But the history and name speaks for us. From the fifty masks created, some were double (or second choices). However, all were representing a specific musical and extra-musical period that mirrored us. There will be some fabulous masks for the Band’s new album (already in preparation), but I can’t say more at the moment.

Tony Tears has multiple personalities. Your discography blurs the line between solo works and having a fully-blown line-up. The pattern is not even chronological! How does the differing chemical balance of minds suit you?

This is your opinion. In reality, I tell you that it is my way of understanding esoteric and occultism. I have a well-marked path, and it is far from having multiple personalities; if anything, I am consistent. It is true that I combine “apparently” different currents of thought but I have learned to bring them to my “advantage” in life. I love being consistent and what I just explained is proof that I am. The same applies to the record chronology in the “apparently” different genres. Over the years I have made “solo” albums where I played everything, albums where I ranged from more Metal songs with Martial rhythmic sections, in Kraut Rock style, to more extensive music with Industrial and experimental sounds when the Industrial did not yet exist; as an example I would say the 2000 CD “Fears and Sensations …” although the recording was not very modern, it had its vaguely industrial experimental Italian Dark Sound charm. This was repeated after, with the album “The Reality Before All”, although from this second album the sound began to be definitely more professional. “The Reality Before All” was an album with longer suites, while in “Fears and Sensations…” (with the exception of the last song) they are all catchy songs. Despite this apparent diversity between the two genres, personally, I don’t see a lack or a melodic diversity in the two styles practiced by solo Tony Tears and Tony Tears as a band. In both styles there is always something recognizable and in both there are two essential characteristics in the Tony Tears band, namely: the melody and the compositions are two very important things, they will never be missing. So, the difference is only in the length of the songs that goes from those more Anthem Rock to those more Dark Electronic Progressive stylings. In singing we range from Italian to English, sometimes I leave my most solo albums wholly instrumental (but it’s something I’ve been doing since 1988). So, there is always a great compositional and melodic arrangement capacity in my songs and in my albums in general. The very fact of defining the more soloists and the others as a band, is given only by the fact that the fixed Band is used to play live and to make most of the favourite songs by myself, or the Dark Sound ones with a formation behind. In fact, the so-called “solo” albums are because, there, I find myself doing (as in the past) all by myself. One day, when we have a keyboard player in training, also the songs from the “solo” albums will be reproduced live in the Tony Tears Band. Therefore, Tony Tears’ discography understanding be done by inserting both the Albums played alone more in the style of Electronic Dark Progressive, with the Albums where more is done Metal with the Band. The difference is not in proposing something very different from one another; even in the Albums with the Band there is no lack of more atmospheric songs (even if combined with Metal and they are much shorter). The so-called “solo” albums are not minor or simpler than those with the band, they are not a filler or something very different from the things done with the band, they are (in reality) to be considered all Tony Tears albums. I can guarantee that in many “electronic” Albums (so-called soloists) by Tony Tears there are musical finesses that if you don’t know how to play will never be able to do, there is great music inside them. As you can see, also on a chronological level there is a unique and coherent path. The so called solo albums are born from personal ideas that I feel I can use in music in a totally solitary, but there is no musical difference, we are always consistent. Our minds are on the same wavelength, also because, when I make my “solo” albums I don’t keep the band still, we are always active, and they are excited to play in the Tony Tears.

Apologies for the interjection. But on that thought of training a keyboard player, have you already played live as Tony Tears? Will this become a priority in future? How do you envisage the ideal presentation of your works on stage?

Here in Genoa, it is difficult to find keyboard players and bass players. Maybe more so keyboard players. In my project and band, the majority of fans see me as the guitarist of the Tony Tears. I hardly see my band with two guitars; I wouldn’t even like it, because, having a very particular touch, I want to remain the only guitarist. I’ve always rather imagined the Tony Tears Band with a good keyboard player. However, the risk of finding a Power Metal style keyboard player is there. Precisely for this reason, we are looking but with great caution and without haste. Among other things, in Tony Tears Band (always) I deal a lot with keyboards, therefore, as we now find it, any player should accept the condition of dividing the keyboards with me (at least in the studio) and this makes the matter even more difficult. On the other hand, thanks to the technique and the harmony that we have as a Band so far, we are able to make up for the absence of both a second guitar and a keyboard player. Both our former bass player and the new one have always done a great job of bass, both for power and for filling, which makes our songs explosive (in the true sense of the word). Anyway, to answer your question, yes, we have already played live. In 1989 there was the first concert, even if in an unofficial way, in the sense that there were no albums but only demos, therefore, the members of that band of kids did not have time to study the pieces. We had a concert with masks, sets, however the songs were Dark / Doom Metal improvisations, more or less sketched in the rehearsal room. In the same vein, there were other concerts in the 90s. For many reasons, in the following years I dedicated more time to bands to play live, but the idea of bringing a fixed line-up to Tony Tears has existed in my mind since the project was born in 1988. Although I made several albums first like Tony Tears, the difficulty of having people capable not only technically but also within the project with the right frame of mind (since it is not just music) pushed me to wait and not to be in a hurry. For this reason, there were no concerts before the last period that goes from 2019 to today. I repeat, as Tony Tears (myself) in other bands, I played a lot in all eras and this made sure to keep the name of Tony Tears alive. This meant that when Tony Tears (Band) played, it was like we had always played and in a way it was the truth. From 2019 to today, we have played three very important concerts. One in Parma at the Obscura Doom Festival, in its sixth edition, with: Ferum, Chains, Night Gaunt and Messa. Many people in the audience came especially for us. Then, we played at the Carignano Theatre in Genoa on a large stage, with Rebels Under Rain, Deathless Legacy and Freddy Delirio And The Phantoms. Finally, we played at Angelo Azzurro, also in Genoa, as Headliner. Angelo Azzurro is the most Metal venue in Genoa and although we were at the end of the night and thought no one would come; the place was full of fans. We were stunned. We didn’t think it could happen because nearby there was a concert by a well-known Metal band. Yes, from now on, it will become the normality that Tony Tears will play live. Believe me, it was a fire that burned under the ashes, since it was my will from the time when I was a kid, when I started with my first official 1988 demo “Strane Sensazioni”. The sets of the Tony Tears will always be particular, the feel never tacky. In the three concerts that we played, we brought my esoteric paintings, our masks, statuettes that David and I use (also for our rituals). We have not managed to bring everything completely. In the future, we would like to enrich our stage decoration further, but I don’t want to make suggestions for other bands to copy. I will keep it secret for now…

Having released two albums as a trio in three years do you feel more cohesive as a group? To what extent do you think that this partnership made “Demons Crawl…” a stronger album than if you had tried to execute it alone?

In reality there are three titles when counting “Follow The Signs of the Times”, “Demons Crawl At Your Side” and the vinyl EP celebrating thirty years of the project (and band) Tony Tears. So, the works with the formations are from 2015 to 2020. Even in the past, there have been guest musicians in different works. So, as you can see, there has always been consistency (even in trying to establish training). The things I did totally alone, were just the Dark Electronic Progressive works, because I liked it and it was a job that allowed me to do it. Today we are very cohesive as a band and as a group, and by group I mean the things just explained above. Today Tony Tears is a team, therefore, necessarily, it is better than doing things alone; but they are two different things as a way of understanding the works, so the thing is not comparable (in measure). Both things are important, even my so-called “solo” works have evolved compared to those done years ago. To give you an example, while I’m writing this interview, my latest album “The Wail of the Elements”, an album on the electronic dark progressive style, has been released for less than two months, yet, compared to previous works, it is ten spans higher. I have improved exponentially in terms of sounds, recording, mixing in these types of works (which I do totally on my own, including mixing, everything). I am very proud of “The Wail of the Elements”. If I had done “Demons Crawl At Your Side” alone it would have come out equally beautiful but different from thinking of it as a Band. Instead, thinking about it for the Band, a great album came!! And that’s okay so…

The names of your esteemed colleagues should be at least vaguely familiar to those with even a passing interest in the Italian Dark Sound. Please tell us how and when you met. What brought you together and how have those bonds strengthened over time?

Two old friends who understand me and follow me of many years (since the early 90s) are: David Krieg on vocals, and Lowrence Butleather (Lorenzo Mapelli) on drums. David, I met him in the very early 90s in the Black Widow Records store. Lawrence, on the other hand, I met him in the company of friends always in the very early 90s. They are the friends and musicians I’ve been playing with for the longest time. In addition, there is always a long-time friend and Tony Tears fan; that is, Regen Graves of the Abysmal Grief. Regen, I met him at “The Black” concert in ’98 where with Abysmal Grief, they rang on the support. For a short time, he played bass with us, then he decided to devote more time to his band (and we understood it). Regen remained as a helper; sound engineer, and graphic aid. Regen is also very good at graphics. I, however, in the graphics I should improve a lot. I have a lot of taste in the choice of covers but the result that Regen obtains with graphics, light effects and title logos, he is always excellent, we often leave this task to him. He cares for us and is happy. Then, there is the second female voice, which is my partner, that is, Sandra Silver (Sandra I don’t think she needs any introduction, also considering her vocal past with Paolo Catena and some performance collaboration with Steve Sylvester). I met Sandra when I was a boy (in the 90s) when I went to visit Paolo Catena at their home; I saw her again after years at a martial arts internship (which I have been practicing since I was 6 years old) I immediately snap the spark between me and Sandra. Only after a few months did we decide together that we could embark on a journey with the Tony Tears. Personally, I have always believed in Sandra Silver a lot, I have always supported her, since her works with Paolo Catena. Then there is the new and definitive bass player: he is a fan of ours, at our concerts (in Genoa) he has always been in the front row. A young boy but with a great interest (and culture) for the esoteric, in addition, has an exceptional musical culture for his age. This boy is actually a guitarist of a very good Genoese band, but he also has a passion for bass and plays it great; he is a young boy (the youngest of the band) but he brought great enthusiasm and a breath of freshness, it took! Then there is the girlfriend of David Krieg (Lisa) who is a good designer and author of paintings of various kinds. Lisa, created the design of our T-shirts. There’s a kind of team behind the Tony Tears today, and that’s a great thing. Each of us has a partner who can do something and everyone can bring ideas inside.

We have already touched upon the Italian Dark Sound on multiple occasions. As a native, please explain what it means to you personally…

In my opinion, the term Dark Sound cannot be reduced to something restrictive like Doom. Traditional Doom Metal (which is then the classic Dark Metal) is the real Dark Sound; Trouble, Candlemass, Manilla Road, Sarcofagus, Witchfinder General, Angel Witch and Demon; but also Iron Maiden in many moments, Judas Priest, MercyfuL Fate, King Diamond, Saint Vitus and many others. In Italy, our historical Bands of true Dark Sound includes Jacula, Antonius Rex, Goblin, Mario Di Donato with The Black and Requiem, Death SS (also the modern one of the last period), Paul Chain (with all its variants of name), Black Hole and Run After To (never mentioned, yet very good). All these foreign international bands have contributed to the Dark Metal world in all its forms. As for the Italian bands, the same is true; and in fact, you want our esoteric cultural tradition, you want the popularity of all our bands just mentioned, but I think I can say (without a shadow of a doubt) that Italian bands are second to none, and are well known and appreciated by now all over the world. Tony Tears, by name historicity, beginning of the project, and bands (1988) are not very second compared to the historical Italian bands. Indeed, by now, in various reviews and interviews we are seen as a band of the time (rightly in my opinion), as well as for the year I started (1988) also because Tony Tears Sound takes a lot from the old school of Italian style; even if we managed to put it, sometimes, into modern contexts. For me, therefore, this genre (and this tradition) transcends myself, goes beyond music itself. Tony Tears’ music is a continuous change and evolution of my esoteric experience poured into music, something so profound and lived that it cannot be described in an interview. However, I don’t like having the Doom label (as it is understood today). Today, this term refers to something slow, spasmodic, even too much in my opinion. Tony Tears is not like that. Our melodies are always open (they breathe), even when they are very gloomy. Obviously, in Dark Prog Electronic style music, music is more atmospheric, but the melodies and composition are many and open. In the Metal pieces, we have here and there some calm but never excessively slow moments I don’t like excessively slow music and I don’t like the opposite extreme either. For this reason, I am a lover of Classic Metal (and classics) rather than Doom as it is understood today. For me, the Italian tradition is not Doom as someone else might understand it. If I listen to the “slower” things of the Italian bands mentioned above, they are never excessively slow. If you hear Tony Tears’ things, they are not overly slow. By slow, I also mean songs that are half an hour on the same notes that make Rock repetitive with: drums, bass, guitar, voices. Personally, I could never do such a thing. For me this is to force something. In fact, the labels that some reviewers give to bands always leave the time they find. Some labels have been attached to us, such as Doom or simple but fascinating music. I don’t agree with these labels and statements, because: first of all, Tony Tears is not canonical DooM and we never want this to be and secondly, our rock music, like a band, our songs more stage, are deliberately more captivating. But I can assure you, in the middle there are many of those musical and technical subtleties, which if a person does not know how to play he will never be in able to do them. I have studied music from a lifetime, and I continue to study, therefore, I tell you these things as a competent musician and not an amateur. For this reason, a band like Tony Tears wants to get out of the discourse of labels, because they are always made by those who have a very limited vision of music; I’m sorry to say it but it is so.
Look at The Black, who now make reputable Dark Metal and with “Gorgoni” they have taken a monstrous step forward, yet there are those who continue to catalogue them as cult bands, when (instead) they have gained (especially with this album) a place among the most important bands of Italian Metal in general and not necessarily in Dark / Doom alone. Look at the ridiculous criticisms that some make of the new Death SS, saying they have marketed, only because they have “detached” themselves from the traditional Dark Sound of the first seal. But why, sorry? Has the band Death SS not always made a dark and gothic Dark Metal? I think so. Was it supposed that the new Death SS would remain the same like almost forty years ago? Absurd! This is what I mean. Those who make music do not care (rightly) about the opinion of the few who would like to relegate a musical genre to worship. There are bands that want to get out of the cult logo (or label), and it will seem strange, but Tony Tears is also part of this movement. The new album (now in preparation) is a big step forward in this sense. I know someone will be disappointed. Patience. In addition to those who understand us (among old fans) we will gain new fans. We cannot remain anchored to someone’s thought. From birth, Tony Tears was already projected to evolution and a proof of what I say lies in the fact that if somebody listens, in a chronological sense, right, our albums (our discography) they will notice what I am saying. We have gone from making a Dark Sound Metal to experimental electronics, a little old-fashioned perhaps (but made with our style) with technical improvement and increasing recording capabilities, therefore, it is not surprising. One thing is certain. Tony Tears will always be sincere in what they propose, wanting to make a qualitative leap does not necessarily mean marketing yourself. That’s what was said about (new) Death SS and it happened to many other bands; statements and “accusations” made by those (few but don’t give up) who would like to have a Doom job (Doom as it is understood today). It seems like they are a distressing machine that cannot stop. So for me, the Italian Dark Sound tradition meant having loved (and having lived) the bands mentioned earlier. But having a project and a band (Tony Tears) that existed since the age of the bands mentioned above and being (us) changeables (changeable by our nature), we cannot remain anchored to canonical Doom, it has never been like this. Evolution is an important thing, often the difference between professional bands (even in the Italian Dark / Doom) and those that are not, lies precisely in this difference. Tony Tears is part of the Italian tradition and we will always be proud of it. We also look at the evolution, both in the most theatrical songs (Dark Metal) and for my solo works. “The Wail of the elements” is much more professional, modern and powerful as a solo album compared to things done years ago, but it is consistent with an Electronic Dark Prog style I’ve always done. Our tradition is wonderful and second to none. Tony Tears is part of it…

To be continued…

Danny Angus
June 2020

Retaining that DIY ethic, the Finnish quartet returned in a relatively short space of time with three more songs and the trajectory of this little red cassette shell is quite intriguing. Distinctly the same entity, the compositions have been pushed further with more depth and diversity. Both originals are at least ten minutes long with ample air to breath. Crawling along in a spaced out manner, “Days Are Numbered” is difficult to decipher although Alessio’s phased vocals still weave an unusual spell in contrast to the otherwise pervading heaviness. Ominous instrumental passages sprawl to the fore and disperse again. Then as the song meanders towards its mellow close, an unknown male voice whispers what I imagine to be a series of apocalyptic predictions. The calm spills into “Worm” with gentle guitar. Understated, the plucking gradually ushers in a new sun to melt the lingering dusk. When it does, that slow-burn is replaced with what may be their most direct Doom Metal foray. Drive and groove. A feat of rumbling drumming changes the course and the lead guitar closes with cool glide over the rhythm section. Facing the void again, feedback envelops all. Then, only then, comes the proverbial left turn with an unexpected rendition of “Sodomatic Rites” by the murky old Beherit! The driving riff of those fellow Finns is well suited to Dark Origins’ hypnotic tendencies. It’s heads down blackened menace with the drummer snarling into the microphone. Half-expecting an organ refrain akin to “From Beyond” it never comes and the transmission ends abruptly with no further fanfare. Where and when the next sighting will come nobody knows. But keep those radio channels open…

What does the name conjure in your mind? Death? Pain? Suffering? Melancholy? Well, that would be a beginning. But it goes deeper than that, at least six feet underground, for the founding principle of the band was to explore the relationship of inner spiritism with the world beyond. Their tools have been the thorough study of occult texts and divination of the deceased. This brew of funeral mysticism, necromancy, horror cinematography and literature are, in turn, reflected in the lyrics and the music becomes the soundtrack to that story. Their guitarist, sometime drummer and lyricist, Regen Graves, will begin the initiation…

Greetings Regen, the time has come. Are you prepared?
Hi Danny, I’m glad to answer your questions.

Please begin by introducing the trio at the heart of your craft? How, where and when did you meet? What initially brought you, and has kept you, together?
Abysmal Grief was born as an esoteric band in 1996. At that time I was deeply into Horror and Dark Metal, and I wanted to create a project in which I could express my passion towards Occultism and everything concerning Death and graveyards, the most wonderful places in this world. I changed many musicians but finally the line-up was stabilised with the arrival of Lord Alastair, on bass, and Labes C. Necrothytus, on keyboards, and soon after, lead vocals, two guys with the same passion for the Dark sounds and Death. Since then, many musicians joined and left Abysmal Grief for different motivations, but we continue walking together on our path towards the End.

Abysmal Grief is a distinctive and fitting name. What was its source?
I simply wanted a name that could express the main subject of our style, something that could remind you of the main feelings about Death and Sorrow. I don’t remember how it came out, surely turning over and over again the pages of my English dictionary…

Not that many moons ago, the band released the “Mors Eleison” MLP on I Hate Records. How was that partnership forged?
At that time, I had these three or four songs that I wanted to record in the same release, and as Horror Records was too busy I decided to contact Ola to ask if he would be interested in this kind of material. They were enthusiastic about it, and suggested the 12” format, so we entered our studio and recorded the “Mors Eleison” MLP in three weeks. It remains a very important work for us, like a manifesto of our musical concept.

Given that the label rarely releases vinyl and the band had, to that point in time, been primarily concentrating on demos and singles, what led you  to the superb, yet dying, format of the mini-album?
In the beginning. our idea was to record simply a sort of maxi-single, but when the songs were ready to be recorded, I found out that it had to be something more important, so, according to I Hate, it became a MLP, not a CD simply because we hate that format!

The gatefold is visually striking. Please explain why you opted for “The Death and the Maiden” painting by Marianne Stokes to adorn the sleeve.
I found this painting quite casually and liked it soon because in some way it reminds me of the image of the Annunciation, even if in this case, the Angel is Death, giving it a grim meaning, only better…

What does the title mean? To what extent does it unify the artwork and the music within?
The meaning of “Mors Eleison” is something like “Death have mercy” and expresses the fear of most people facing Death, just like the figure of the maiden on the front  cover.

Your rendition of “Occultism” by Paul Chain is more than commendable and it seems an appropriate choice for your ends. But were any others, such as, say, “Mortuary Hearse” or “In The Darkness” considered? Perhaps that particular song and the legendary composer behind it carry a special significance?
I soon chose “Occultism” because it comes from my favourite Paul Chain vinyl, “Detaching From Satan” MLP, which I consider an absolute masterpiece of Esoteric and Spiritualist music. I always had the idea to play a cover of Paul Chain but I waited to be really ready and with the appropriate magical preparation to write the lyrics. The realization of the “Mors Eleison” MLP was the right moment and the perfect concept for it.

Was it an arduous task to replace the phonetic lyrics with your own words to fit the metre? Out of interest, did Labes C. Necrothylus have a go at imitating those phonetics before you lifted the quill to begin that process?
I had no problems about those lyrics. It came quite naturally, Both Labes and I have listened to this song for many years, and we really made it ours.

Has Paul Chain heard this bold interpretation of his work? If not, how do you think he would react?
I don’t think he has heard it, and I imagine he has no interest at the moment in having to do with anything of his past. He probably wouldn’t’t like it…

Was “The Shroud” really recorded as early as 1999? Was it presented unaltered for this MLP and if so, why has it only surfaced now? Do you have much in the way of older material like this that has never been heard or seen the light of day?
“The Shroud” was recorded totally improvised by me in 1999 and I never listened it again for years. Then I found it in a old cassette and I decided to clean it up and put it in one of our releases that could fit in some way with the feeling of ceremonial sorrow that I had when I recorded it, and “Mors Eleison” was the right occasion. I have a lot of other synth/keyboard songs that I have never used, but maybe someday people will listen to it…

“Mysterium Umbrarum” is an intriguing and eerie composition with howling winds and the devilish tune of the clarinet mingling in the background. Would you reveal the general flavour of the lyrics that accompany them for those of us who do not have a grasp of the language? Is some form of rite being undertaken?
This song represents a sort of initiation in which is recited a Spiritist creed based upon the Doctrine of Allan Kardec. I composed this text referring to my studies and it expresses the sum of the Spiritist Theory: In the first part, the Medium introduces himself as the main officiator, while in the second part the adherents expound the creed like a kind of oath.

How did these guest musicians become involved in this particular song? Some may already know Tony Tears from your earlier split single collaboration. But probably not the others…
Tony Tears is a great musician and an old friend of mine. We share the same deep interest in the Occult arts. The other members are musicians or writers from our city who follow and support our message. We are also good friends, and when I asked them to take part in this recording, they accepted enthusiastically and very seriously.

The label pressed 500 copies of the vinyl and in a matter of months, they disappeared from the source. While the band and some mailorders may still have a few copies to spare were you taken aback by the rate at which they were greedily consumed by the underground? Has the feedback you have received matched this level of enthusiasm?
I really didn’t expect this MLP would have met with such success. We were very proud of the final sound and obviously also of the gatefold packaging by the label. But none of us had foreseen that people could react in this way. It represents a satisfying result and proves that our message has been understood.

Shortly after the MLP essentially disappeared from regular circulation your debut self-titled album was released by Black Widow Records. But what our readers may find shocking is that it was recorded the best part of two years earlier! That must have been frustrating. It may even have stopped a weaker band dead in its tracks. What lay behind the delay? Do you think this has hindered the development of Abysmal Grief at all?
You are correct. This delay has been deeply frustrating for us. The album has been conceived, recorded and mixed under very inauspicious influences and we suffered the unprofessional attitude of a lot of people and some kind of ostracism during the entire production process. But I don’t want to go into details, I just can tell you that next album will be entirely produced and managed under my control, including the release date and every aspect of it.

Well, crucially, the album did eventually surface. Please elaborate on the shadowy painting by Laura Campanella, which seems to represent the opening lines of the album. But to whom do the five sets of hands belong and why is only one face visible?
The only visible face is that of the medium, while the other people are shaded in the darkness meaning that living people remain in the obscurity about the true knowledge, which is reserved only for those few who can obtain the answers from the World Beyond. I found this image from an old theatrical show and decided to have it painted for our cover because it represents perfectly the message of the album. She made a great interpretation.

To what extent would you say that this ceremonial flavour, audibly and visually,  is indicative of your direction or was it specific to that era and the ideas you were then exploring?
The songs of the album are from different periods and represent, in some way, a sort of esoteric path in which I developed my studies, so it must be considered as a sum of my knowledge so far. The whole work, including music, symbols and packaging have been conceived as a unique concept, which is indicative of our musical and philosophical style.

The short interludes, “Dirges” and “Divination” give the record a continuous feel and fleeting reprieves from the primary songs. But do you think it would suffer without them?
I decided to use these interludes to introduce a more atmospheric tone to the album and I think they fit perfectly with the long songs. They have a musical value and function to give the listener a little break between the long compositions.

What is you favourite composition included herein? Why?
I have no favourite compositions. Every piece represents something personal. I know this is a common answer but it is the true. I couldn’t choose one song over the others.

“Creatures From The Grave” seems to stand at the heart of the album. Was that deliberate or might it be explained by its familiarity from the earlier split single or even its consistently faster pace?
It was a casual decision. The order of the songs, apart from the first, is based on their length in relation to the sides of the vinyl format. I always use this parameter for our releases, as we never consider the existence of the CD format. This is the reason why we will record only 45-48 minutes albums and their structure will always be in relation to the length of the vinyl sides.

Mario “The Black” Di Donato is another cult figure within the Italian underground. How did he become involved with the band and what did he contribute to “The Necromass”?
In the past, we played two concerts with The Black and we deeply respect him. Moreover, we are both with Black Widow Records so it was very easy to contact him and ask for his collaboration. I am proud of his contribution. He is a great artist.

 

In this particular song, you have branded the funeral rite as the necromass, which you view as some form of rebirth. What do you mean by this? What do you consider to be the purpose of this spiritual existence, if indeed there is one, beyond answering the call of the living?
I simply mean that stupid mankind thinks to rule the world, and all the stupid religions claim to give us sure answers, but we are nothing and our existence here is limited and incomplete. We can only try to get answers from the ones who lived before us and know where we are going. But in my opinion, those who lived are not that interested to have contact with us, and most times their messages are completely misunderstood. This is the reason why we consider Death the only passage to a higher level and the funeral is the last rite that can set us free to evolve…

“In static rest eternal life…” suggests that existence is more than movement. If there is more to life and death than physical form, what then defines being?
This is a good question, and probably we need more than one interview to answer it without falling into ridicule or boring the readers. I think that our physical existence is only a passage in the long way of our soul, and the Death of our body is a liberation. We should define this as a starting point, then everyone can reflect and work out his own opinion about his path, far from stupid religious dogmas.

Do you feel the eyes of the dead upon you wherever you are, wherever you go and whatever you do? Do those stares belong to anyone you had met in this life before they passed to the other side? If anything, what do they ask?
I feel the presence of dead people many times, but it doesn’t mean that I have supernatural powers! In your opinion, what makes most people’s flesh crawl if they find themselves inside a graveyard at night? The fear of some “zombie”, or something similar in typical horror movie style? I don’t think so. We keep Death inside us, as our birth is simply the result of a previous End, and we are made of it, so it is present in our subconscious for all our corporal existence. I like walking through the tombstones and observing the photos of the deceased just because they really communicate with us, even if we are usually too afraid and blind to understand them.

You seem drawn to the colour violet. Is its relationship with death and funerals more significant, more metaphorical, than the picture previously painted by Death SS in their song “Black and Violet”?
In Italy, people fear to put black and violet together, as they are considered symbols of Misfortune. I am attracted by them, as I think every sort of bad influence on my life can raise my spirit, so I surround myself with every kind of symbol and object that could take my existence closer to the End.

On the inner sleeve, it is interesting that you have adopted the symbol of a snake devouring its own tail. Is there ever a definitive end or only new beginnings and endless cycles?
It is an Ouroboros and it represents the continuous cycle of Life and Death. It contains the XIII, which is the number of the Tarot for Death. Together they represent eternal change and the infinite Ends that our soul has to face. There is not only one Death for us, and this is simply great, don’t you think?

Speaking of cycles, Horror Records is about to exhume your “Hearse” 7”single as a limited edition picture disc. I hope the deluxe gatefold sleeve will be retained! Will there be any other changes apart from the shift in format? Does demand remain or is it more important to keep your releases in circulation and gather new followers as your message spreads?
Well, I think that the picture disc won’t have any gatefold cover! Apart from that, there will be nothing new about the songs, obviously. Horror Records decided to release this version as it became sold out in a very short time, and lot of people continue to ask for it. I think it is a good idea, as we have been always very proud of that release.

Two other new 7” singles have already been prepared for release by Horror Records in the coming months, the first of which is a  pairing with Denial of God. What unites and separates both bands? In this instance, have you agreed to explore a common theme or is contrast paramount?
The main difference between Abysmal Grief and Denial of God is that we play essentially Doom/Dark, while they are a Black Metal band. Apart from this, we share the same passion in Occultism, Necrophilia and Horror, so I thought it would be great to collaborate with them, and maybe someday we will manage to organize some gigs together around Europe. It would be great. We didn’t agree about any particular concept, so I am just waiting to hear their grim song…

Your contribution to the split single is a fresh interpretation of “Brides Of The Goat”, which originally appeared on your “Funereal” Demo Cassette in 1998. Why have you opted to return to this specific song now and how will this version vary?
“Brides of the Goat” is the only song from that period which we continue playing on stage, so I thought it would be great to record it again with Labes on vocals with a more doomish style, as over the years, we slightly changed the final part of the song during live exhibitions. The final result is really grim and heavy, I hope our old fans will like it.

Do you think that this two-pronged attack provides a valuable opportunity to reach more listeners through the other band? Is that even relevant to you as an artist? Perhaps brotherhood underlies it?
The only reason why Azter and I decided to release this split is the deep admiration we have respectively. We really don’t give a fuck about reaching more fans. This is just a sign of respect and brotherhood between Abysmal Grief and Denial of God in the name of Horror and Death.

The second single will be called “The Samhain Feast” and released at its corresponding calendar date. What can be anticipated from the title track, “Grimorium Verum” on the reverse and the artwork that will house them?
I really don’t know yet if this release will be confirmed or not. Everything depends on the future availability of Horror Records. The songs are almost ready, we are mixing them now, but by the moment everything is still wrapped in a sort of violet mist…

If that were not already enough, readers will delight in the knowledge that the new album has essentially been fully written and recording sessions are imminent. You have described its flavour as less ceremonial, more necrophilic and harsh, yet remaining dark and slow! Does that still allow space for the haunting organs? Would you be willing to unveil a little of any specific songs and their accompanying lyrics?
The organs and the keyboards are a fundamental element of the music of Abysmal Grief! This album will be in the same vein as all our compositions, and musically it is in the exact middle between “Mors Eleison” and “Abysmal Grief”. About the lyrics, they are a little more personal and descriptive than the first album, but there are no conceptual differences. Obviously I don’t want to pre-announce anything more about it…

Once again, Black Widow will help realise your vision. How will the album be presented and when do you estimate it hitting the shelves?
There are going to be no differences of production for this new release. It will be released on LP and digi-pack CD formats again, and I would like it to be available in 2009, which is a very special year for us, being our 13^th together. This is the reason why I want the master to be ready before the end of the year: I don’t want to repeat the same delays of the previous  album…

Alexander Baal joined your ranks approximately five or six months ago to take up the position behind the drum kit. How is he settling in as an individual as well as a musician
He is an old friend of mine and when I asked him to help us he accepted and soon wanted to become an official member. He is very serious and professional so we are satisfied with his efforts so far and I hope we will be ready to return on stage next Autumn.

If he were to stay for the longer haul, it would surely be advantageous for Abysmal Grief. Not only would it free you up during rehearsals and recording to focus on your craftsmanship, the band can also begin thinking about a return to the stage. Would that be a priority after the completion of the album?
Sincerely, we have never suffered from the deficiency of a drummer, as we never considered concerts as a fundamental aspect of our music. In the last years, I have changed a little my opinion, and this is the reason why in, the future, probably you will see a fourth member in our line up, obviously, only if he is really into the Occult and deserves to play with us…

How would you describe the ideal live representation of the band?
A concert in which we could really evoke something from Beyond. But it will be impossible, I think, in that circumstances we are often involved by the crowd and it is not imaginable to concentrate deeply. But if we can manage to make the people feel our same feelings, it is anyway a great goal for us.

In the past few years, you have played concerts with some of your Italian brethren who also explore dark and brooding sounds, such as The Black, Misantropus and L’ Impero Delle Ombre. But what has been your most memorable performance and why?
The best concert we played was probably two years ago in Germany where people were really mad and crazy for our show, and I must admit we played very well. Azter has the recording of that show. Perhaps, in the future, it will be available in some way… Concert organization outside Italy are more professional and serious than they are here, and it allows the musicians to perform better. This is the main reason why we will prefer going around Europe in the future!

Italy has a rich and dark musical tradition spanning from the late ‘60s to the present day. What is its impetus and why is it so unique?
I think Italy has suffered the influence of the infamous church more than any other country in the world, and it influenced deeply any kind of art. If we speak about music, I don’t consider so strange that many of the great occult bands are from Italy. We usually have a deep sensitivity about mysticism and the fear of Death. It is very sad, but this is the truth…

It might be viewed as quite insular or impenetrable as some bands have opted for their native tongue, Latin or even created a new language through phonetics. That, in my view, is a strength, and diversity should be encouraged. But why does there seem to be less media coverage as well as live opportunities for these great bands beyond your borders?
Well, if you think that the old great bands have notoriety here in Italy, you are completely wrong! Most Italian people never listened to Death SS, Paul Chain or Jacula! The Italian Dark Sound is much more famous outside Italy than inside, and this is one of the big contradictions here.

Please elaborate on the sense of community and collaboration between likeminded musicians. For example, while we have already touched upon those who have leant a hand to Abysmal Grief, you, personally, have been involved with Malombra and Il Segno Del Comando. Do you think such cross pollination is healthy and important?
I think that it is supposed to be collaboration only among bands really similar, musically or conceptually. I would never collaborate with a Death Metal, NSBM or Hardcore band as I don’t like those kinds of music or their message. On the contrary it was an honour for me to collaborate with Mercy or recording and mixing the song of Tony Tears for our split single in 2004. Musically, I am influenced only by those few bands that really share the same esoteric concept of Abysmal Grief, and obviously not only from Italy.

If you had a free hand, would you consider doing a full-blown project outside of Abysmal Grief? If so, what would be its focus and who would you like to be involved?
As I told you before, I have a good number of ritualistic synth/church organ songs that are buried among my tapes, and maybe some day I will give them new life… For the moment though, my only project is Abysmal Grief and I really couldn’t tell more than what I am expressing now with my band.

You may have already partially answered this question, but for which musician, Italian or otherwise, do you have the most respect? What is your favourite recording? Why?
The greatest artist and esoteric musician of all the times was Paul Chain. As everybody knows, he is artistically dead now, but his place has been taken by Mortuary Drape, which plays quite a different kind of music but keep the same esoteric aura. My favourite recording from Paul Chain is “Detaching From Satan” although not forgetting “The Story of Death SS” which is a great album, probably my absolute favourite, while from Mortuary Drape, I think “All the Witches Dance” is their best one. I have a deep respect for them.

Music is not your only passion. Perhaps you would describe some of your favourite horror films and directors, literature and authors? What makes them special, what impact have they had on you and how does that eerie atmosphere seep into your own creations?
Apart from music, my second passion is going around and taking photos of ancient graveyards or ossuaries. I like grim pictures, especially in black and white, and this is the reason why I am a big fan of all the old horror movies of the ‘50s or ‘60s, and generally of all those minor directors as Rollin, De Ossorio, Joe D’Amato and many others…  Our music has always been influenced by some of those movies, and also from authors as Poe, Stoker, Bierce and so on.

You take your study of the occult seriously. What led you to this path, which aspects have particularly captured you interest and how have you explored them?
When I was younger, my attitude was much more superficial and dangerous. I was attracted by every kind of Magical art, but soon I decided to concentrate on the Dead and relations with them. My intent was just to go deeper into the knowledge of myself and some strange particulars of our existence, and obviously to explore the Death and its deep influence on our life.

Throughout your reading, which occult texts have you found most illuminating and least relevant? Any recommendations?
I read several books about this subject, especially from Kardec, who theorized very well the Spiritist doctrine. Sometimes he is a little too much “religious”, but I consider his “The Medium’s Book”  a fundamental text to go deeper into the World of the Dead.

How do you interpret the following?

XIII is the Esoteric Number, the End and the Beginning.

Chains of Death is one of the first Death SS songs I ever heard, and the final act of all of our shows…

Cremation is only a way to avoid the Arrival of the Worm…

Purgatory never existed.

Paradise is an illusion for fools and ignorant people.

If you were a character rooted in the horror tradition, which figure would best represent you?
Probably Death in Bergman’s “The Seventh Seal”. I love that character and all the philosophy behind that film.

If you could ask me a question, Regen, what would it be?
Have you ever opened a coffin, Danny?

Once or twice…

We have reached the End. For now. Thank you Regen, for the comprehensive insights. Clearly there is much on the horizon and Pariah Child will continue to champion your cause. The final words are yours…

I thank you for this very long and close interview, and for your interest and respect towards our music and philosophy. In Death…

Danny Angus
June 2008

Spring gives way to summer. A grooving guitar line glides over the steady rhythm of snare and splashing symbols Like a bird of prey, it soars with swift elegance, circling, stretching the full breadth of its powerful wings, ready to swoop. The wind ruffles feathers, drones in a pair of small ears, feeding a racing pulse and intensifying the acrobatic display. Exhilarated, overlooking the plains and the sea, there is much pleasure surveying this boundless domain. “Purer” emanates calm. The hunt, the meal, already a fading memory. But the satisfaction remains. The waves timidly lap against the shore. The submerged synths swirl in the gentle currents at the water’s edge. Guitars shimmer in the retreating haze. The day is done…

The churning drone of Empty Shapes could have been Carlton Melton. Almost. Then rolling percussion marks the gentle footfalls of this procession. We are led away from that thought through the long grass. The partially buried saxophone peaks out with the tip of its nose and entices deeper and deeper into this exotic melee. Seductive, hypnotic and absorbing without any sense of repetition. Potent. The cyclic “Hell of a Night“ is loaded with heavy tones and distorted snarls. Strange percussion rattles at the core. A screw loose. The laidback “Lord” reverberates with the same low-end bass, slowed down, acid-drenched guitars, tripping saxophone and lazy echoing vocals. Well and truly sedated.

www.carltonmeltonmusic.com & emptyshapes@gmail.com

Welcome back, Krista! Ten years have passed since you were interviewed here as Lucubro under my banner of Abandon All Hope. Where does the time go?

The time certainly has flown by quickly! Thanks for interviewing me again!

The members of Second Grave have had a colourful musical past. But what brought you together? How do you think this band stands apart from those previous incarnations?

After Obsidian Halo broke up, I had pretty much decided that I needed a break. A couple of years passed and I had the opportunity to play with another band in the area here, but that didn’t end up panning out. So I thought that might be it for me. I went back to school and out of the blue got a random email from Chuck Ferreira (drummer) asking if I’d be interested in starting something heavy. It sounded interesting, but I put it on the backburner for a while.  But after a couple of months, took him up on his offer. He had a bass player he had been playing with and I brought down Chris Drzal (Obsidian Halo) as the other guitar player. It was slow going at first, but there was a good vibe. The original bass player didn’t end up working out, and eventually Dave Gein (Black Pyramid) joined the band – which helped us really pick up the pace.

Every project I’ve been in has had it’s own thing, but with Second Grave, it just feels like it is the right fit. We all get along really well, and it is really inspiring playing with all of these guys.

The name is based upon a thought provoking quotation of Confucius. What is the relevance? Is the band inspired by the darker side of human psychology?

We were struggling trying to come up with a name. We had a board with a ton of names on it, but we couldn’t get everyone to agree. Chris and I were watching a movie one night – can’t remember which one – but the Confuscious saying appeared on screen, and we thought it was really cool. It was dark sounding, but had a thought-provoking feel. Originally the name suggestion was Two Graves, but a quick internet search revealed there were already a few bands with the name. So Chris then suggested calling it Second Grave. When we brought it to the other two guys, they agreed it was cool and hence – Second Grave became the name. In terms of inspiration,  I would say yes. A lot of the lyrics I write have to do with human nature – and the darker side of it.

Your inspiring debut EP was the definitive highlight of 2012, easily eclipsing many bigger budget albums, yet yours was independent to the bone. Would you share how you managed to shape such a rounded first step together? Did it represent everything written to that point? And was it deliberately given that sense of vinyl flow with two sides?

Once Gein had joined the band, we started writing a lot more. We had a couple of songs we had been working on before he joined, but ended up scrapping them. Covet was the first song that we had written that didn’t get scrapped. From there we just found ourselves crafting the Second Grave sound. Once we had the 4 main tracks we entered the studio in May of 2012 and 4 sessions later had the EP. Chris wrote the intro piece a couple of weeks before we went into the studio and I wrote the acoustic piece shortly thereafter. It all came together very quickly, and just had this really great flow about it. It was coincidence that it has that vinyl flow.

Of the four songs proper, Covet is perhaps the most Confucian dilemma in spirit.  Is it integral to human nature to want to possess, as well as have, the same or as much as our neighbour?

Definitely! Everyone is guilty of it – myself included. It’s just being aware of it and putting things in perspective. It’s really easy to see others around you – especially friends who appear to have more or are doing more with their lives and compare yourself to them. But everyone is on a different path in life and we truly don’t know what it’s like to be someone else, so it’s easy to have these grand illusions, ignoring the choices and decisions that might have lead up to it.

Divide and Conquer could essentially be Covet on a national, global or galactic scale. Ultimately, does power corrupt? And can you envisage a planet where one tribe does not want to dominate its neighbour to its own ends?

Oh yes, power does corrupt. I think some people have good intentions, but they get weighed down with other things. Unfortunately, I can’t see us as a race not wanting to dominate. There are too many looking out for their own interests than caring for the rest of the world. We will always have war. We will always want to control things. It can be quite depressing if you dwell on it.

Our old friend Lovecraft is obviously an inspiration! What is it about the claustrophobic atmosphere of his imagination and prose that resonates with you?

Mountains of Madness’s title was definitely influenced by Lovecraft, but it actually has nothing to do with the story. I had written the lyrics to Mountains of Madness before Second Grave was even a thought. At the time I had written it, China had just had some horrific mudslides – wiping out entire villages. I was so taken aback that an entire place could be destroyed – people, animals – everything, that I wrote that song. It is from the perspective of one person who has survived – but everything they know, everyone they know, is gone.

I think everybody can relate to the anguish of Soul Extinction. But was it written with a particular moment of your life in mind?

Sometimes stories present themselves – something that happens to me, or someone I know, or something I read about in the paper, and I get inspired to write. A lot of this stuff I have to write to make me not be so doom and gloom, otherwise if I let it ruminate it can bring me down.

Soul Extinction is about someone who is on the verge of death, but instead of being scared by it and trying to fight it, they accept that this is the end – they are making their peace with it. Even though there is that anguish, it is uplifting in a twisted sort of way because you aren’t carrying that burden anymore – you are free.

So I wouldn’t say it is an actual current moment of my life, but definitely something I was inspired by while contemplating things.

The red door of the artwork references the short instrumental that opens the EP. What is the significance? The heart? Greed? Blood?

Blood. Blood that has been spilled. The choices that we make in this life are not always good ones. Sometimes we make them thinking that it is the right thing – especially for the greater good – choosing not to dwell on what those decisions will mean to others. “Through the red door” is about that choice. You are choosing to enter, and go down that path.

What is your favourite aspect of the EP? Why?

The flow. We wrote all of those songs back to back and listened to as a whole, it really takes the listener on a journey.

Approximately how many copies have been pressed and sold to date? Would you welcome a vinyl version or is the preference to focus on new material?

As this was a self-released effort, we didn’t have a lot of money after recording. We initially only pressed 100 CDs. Then we sold out of those rather quickly, and pressed another 100. Only to run out of those and press another 100. We at that point decided it was worth it to revamp the packaging and press a further 1000.

We would certainly welcome the opportunity to have the first EP pressed on vinyl. As you stated earlier – it has that perfect A/B feeling already to it. We are still very proud of that effort.

Speaking of newer material, your second offering was a shorter EP in the form of two relatively lengthy songs in signature Second Grave style! But many bands often move straight to record lengthy albums before they have even found their feet. Was the timing right for another concise strike there and then or would you have rather waited until you had more material?

I think the 2-song 10” record was the best step for us at the time. Originally conceived as a 12” split, the 10” was offered when the split didn’t work out. We had already recorded the two songs (lengthy yes) and were happy to deliver some new material. Reading the reviews, it’s been an affirmation that people are looking forward to a full-length, and I think we are now ready to deliver that.

There appears to be a recurring theme of two to the EP. It was initially slated to be called Gemini and then changed to Antithesis. Would you care to elaborate on the concept and slight shift?

Our name “Second Grave” involves two, it was our second effort, we were recording two songs for the EP, and both songs were about war, albeit two completely different takes. We originally had been thinking Gemini, but after contemplating it a bit longer, the songs aren’t really twins – they are the opposites of each other – literally the antithesis of each other.

How does the artwork bind this concept? It certainly looks striking!

We reached out to our long-time friend Cory Heisson who is a fine-artist/tattoo artist for the artwork. I told him the name of the album and the concept behind the two, gave him the lyrics and said I was envisioning a face with two different sides – to represent the two sides of the songs. He then delivered that amazing illustration.

The EP has been pressed on vinyl and released digitally for maximum spread. In your experience, is the demand for both formats comparable? What feedback have you had this far?

I think in this day and age you need to offer the recordings in as many formats as possible. There is no one “true” form. Some people love the warmth of having a physical record, others like the portability of having a digital file to load onto their mp3 player. The benefit of the digital is that you can instantly listen (and hopefully purchase) the vinyl. We have had interesting feedback. Some people at shows are honest in saying they don’t own a record player and want either a CD or a digital version. Others don’t really want a digital version, they prefer a CD format. It’s a mixed bag really.

You lined up a local launch show in January 2014 to celebrate the birth of physical version. Would you describe how the evening panned out? Was it typical in terms of attendance and atmosphere?

We did. We had asked other local bands to be a part of the night – Gozu and Summoner (Boston) and Set (Worcester.) The show was really well attended, a lot of friends and fans, old and new, came out to show support. Mike Hubbard (WarHorse dummer) is now playing with Gozu, so it was great to be back on a bill with him. It was a really supportive night with some really great music. We had the opportunity to put the bill together, and we tried to find bands that not only fit, but that we also loved and wanted to see play.

Second Grave seems to be fairly active on the live front. Over the past couple of years, what have been your best and worst experiences?

In terms of best experiences, both release parties we’ve had have been great. Really good crowds and really positive atmospheres. Worst gig, probably playing at Dusk in Providence, Rhode Island. The place itself was really cool, and everyone there was cool, but we had some technical difficulties which ended up affecting our performance. It probably wasn’t as bad as it seemed, but to us we hold ourselves to a high standard and not feeling like we deliver 110% can be a set back. But we certainly learned from that night what the plan should be if it happens again!

How important is a festival like Stoner Hands of Doom for exposure and to reinforce a sense of community within the music scene? If you have attended previously, how did it compare to actually playing in November 2013?

I think the festivals play an important part. In all of my previous efforts we hadn’t been a part of any, so it is truly an honor to be recognized and added to a bill. Traveling outside of your area – and meeting and playing with so many other talented artists is truly a great experience. We are super excited that the Eye of the Stoned Goat festival will be in Massachusetts this year. We are hoping to show everyone what a great community we have up here!

Our bass player Gein had played the same festival with Black Pyramid and has always raved about it and the folks who put it on.

Please describe the latest new song Death March! How does it compare musically and thematically to your back catalogue?

Ah Death March! Well, it’s definitely in that doom genre and it’s another long one – currently clocking in around 11 minutes. We started experimenting with different tunings – we’re typically in D standard, but went for a dropped C tuning, so the song is a little heavier and more plodding. The chorus is in the “Covet” vein. We also aren’t afraid to experiment and the entire 2-minute intro section has a cleaner, trippy feel that gradually builds, stops to breathe, and then kicks in super heavy.

Chemistry is key to a strong band. Unfortunately, your bassist will be moving on soon so how do you plan to fill the breach?

Yeah, we knew when Gein joined the band that he and his wife would eventually be moving to California. We just figured it wouldn’t be for a while longer. But we’ve had the opportunity to write some really great songs with him and put out 2 really great efforts. He has definitely become more than just our bass player, he’s become a dear friend and will be missed greatly. But he is still very supportive of us and wants to see bigger and better things happen for the band.

We have spoken to a few potential bass players and will be starting “try-outs” in a few weeks. We are hoping it doesn’t take too long as we would like to keep the momentum going. Gein won’t be leaving until May after our gig at the Eye of the Stoned Goat festival, so we are continuing working on new material with him until his departure.

Chemistry is big for sure, and whoever steps in to take over from Gein has some big shoes to fill.

Where will the band go next? Any longer term plans or ambitions?

We are working on new material and hope to release our first full-length later this year.  We are all still feeling very inspired and happy to be a part of this band.

Given that there appears to have been an increasing number of women fronting Heavy Metal bands in recent years, do you think that it’s significant? Might that popularity work for against you?

I think it’s awesome – but there have always been woman playing heavy music. It just seems like there are more today. I LOVE seeing women playing music, as a young teenager I was definitely inspired by women who played guitar. I don’t think it’s a novelty thing – it’s just that you don’t see it as often as you should, so we get lumped into this female-fronted category.

Whatever the cynics say, you have been singing and playing lead guitar since at least the late ’90s with Warhorse, Lucubro and Obsidian Halo. For what it’s worth, I genuinely believe Second Grave is the best of the lot and could go far!

Thanks Danny. I have been doing this for awhile. As time goes on you progress as a player and a writer and you find others to work with who inspire you. I’m truly enjoying being a part of Second Grave making the type of music that we do, and I hope others enjoy it as well!

Check out Second Grave:

www.secondgrave.com
www.facebook.com/secondgraveband
www.twitter.com/secondgrave
secondgrave.bandcamp.com
www.youtube.com/digsecondgrave

The name, music and presentation of the newly founded quartet are all steeped in occult mysticism. There is no colour. Only shades of black and white intermingle with powerful symbols and a fusty smell of a long forgotten age. Their fluid guitars, morbid organ passages, spooky whispers and melancholic voices invoke that tradition of oppressive, blood-chilling, horror. But it is far from impenetrable, even if the Italian tongue is unfamiliar, as they have provided English translations of the text to guide any fellow apprentice. Then again, that is only one dimension of their craft. There is a need to delve much deeper, with a sharp wit, to fully comprehend L’ Impero Delle Ombre. Brothers Giovanni and Andrea Cardellino were at hand to offer an inside perspective of the sect.

Greetings Giovanni and Andrea. Allow me to take your cloaks. Pull up a stool by the fire. How have you spent recent weeks? Have you any tidings to share?

Hail Danny! Thanks for a welcome truly from another era… just as we like it! What can I tell you? We’ve recently moved again, from southern Italy, where we come from, further north to Florence. We move house around every two years: we’re gypsies, maybe we’ve got nomadic blood! Each time I have to reorganise everything but nevertheless, we’re working on the second album.

All Hallow’s Eve passed us by some nights ago. Does its significance vary between traditions in Italy? What does it mean to you? How, if at all, did you mark it?

Unfortunately, Halloween has become a fashion in Italy too. Years ago, my friends and I celebrated it at a time when nobody else did. I have a lot of respect for the pagan and spiritualist meaning of this date and Valpurgisnacht exerts great energy over us. This year, as is our habit, we ate a hearty meal prepared by a very powerful witch, washed down by lots of good red wine.

As little is known of L’ Impero Delle Ombre, how, where and when was the band formed? What were your musical backgrounds, shared inspirations and goals? Have the latter remained unchanged since the beginning?

I founded the band in 1995 in southern Italy, influenced by listening habits based around old Death SS, Paul Chain, Black Widow and Black Sabbath, and occult and esoteric readings. In the past, I played drums, then I switched to vocals and, since the first album, I have remained in the Metal underground just like my brother Andrea, the guitarist. Then, when we arrived in Florence, we had the valuable co-operation of Dario and Enrico Caroli, members of the historic group Sabotage, on drums and bass. Their aim was to play Sabbath-style, mine was to play cemetery rock, and since then fate has not stopped us.

L’ Impero Delle Ombre translates as The Empire of Shadows. Which realm then does the band represent? What is the importance of it?

In esoteric terms, the Empire of Shadows means Hell, the Hell of the self, of this not very human, not very happy, unjust, unequal life. The internal artwork contains a symbol that is the key to interpretation, our logo enclosed in an ancient magic protective talisman of Agrippa.

Like a cloister, the name seems essentially reflective and inward looking. But what is the significance of retaining your native tongue? Are you paying homage to a specific Italian tradition?

I sing in Italian so as to be as spontaneous as possible, and so that the emotions I want to recount flow properly including from a technical viewpoint, through the scansion and exact pronunciation of the lyrics. It is also more logical since I’m Italian. If you like, we’re paying clear homage to our great groups of the progressive movement in the ‘70s.

Tell me about your early rehearsals. How did you create the desired mood to craft and play your songs? To what extent did these versions evolve before they were first captured on cassette?

As regards the tracks on the debut, I can tell you that Andrea and I came up with the riffs, structure and lyrics during some pretty magical nights, together with a few visits to old, abandoned cemeteries, and only arranged them later in the rehearsal room as a group. Every rehearsal was an excuse for interminable ‘70s-style suites, with long, always improvised, jams.

How would you describe your one and only demo? What memories does it recall and to what extent were you satisfied with the finished product? Was it officially released with artwork or widely circulated for feedback?

Demo tape? What demo tape? Two or three copies of a demo exist, one of which served to get us the contract with Black Widow Records. It is simply a Spartan live rehearsal recording made with a basic home stereo recorder.

By this stage, had any friends been invited to view your rehearsals for comment? Had you even played live? Who do you think is your audience? What, if any, were the early responses to your music?

In the past, before the record, we only played a few shows, but they were meaningful ones, with lots of make-up and crosses on the stage, arousing appreciation and great surprise in the audience, which was truly impressed. In the rehearsal room, it was common for us to have lysergic jam sessions with musicians of all types and loads of flute, sax and similar instruments! It seems that our listeners are fans of ‘70s rock and prog and of dark Doom Metal, but I can tell you that we have received opinions from a very wide range of scenes, from darkwave to extreme Metal to classical.

Well, Black Widow Records was certainly impressed! How did that make you feel? What were your respective expectations from the partnership and album deal?

For me, Black Widow is something magical. I grew up together with their policy of true damned rock and with their releases, and when it was time to produce my and our artistic expression, a dream, a dream came through, a form of alchemy. What could I hope for except to continue working with them? Their work on the first album was really praiseworthy!

Your self-titled debut album surfaced late last year. For the uninitiated, how would you describe the flavour of the band and your music as captured on it?

Okay, the record is based on old-style Sabbath and Rainbow Heavy Metal mixed with ‘70s dark progressive, a distinctively Italian style of melody and some symphonic touches. All of this is brought together in a very simple and spontaneous manner, seeing that it was recorded in only three days.

The album was released on both LP and CD formats? Was that important? To what extent do you think they provide a differing experience given that they present the same music and information on each?

The fact is that both we and the label have an almost fetishistic passion for good old-fashioned vinyl… that goes without saying! Carefully putting the needle on an old LP and daydreaming while looking at a large gatefold cover is the greatest! The differences and similarities depend on the listeners’ feelings seeing that the two versions are similar.

Who designed the album cover and was it specifically commissioned for that purpose? Please offer an interpretation of the scene and the symbols it contains.

The cover image is liberally based on a German edition of the book “Orrible Murder” by Leonard De Vries, which recounts tales of horrendous and mysterious crimes in the late 19th century, with lots of illustrations. It is interesting that I found this book many years ago while exploring an abandoned ship that was letting in water along the coast of my town, which really brings to mind “Sea Shanties” by High Tide! I would say that the meaning is fairly explicit. It seems that the grim reaper has come to free the prisoner, whose time has come as can be seen from the hourglass and the candle which has run out, just like his life, while a ray of “light” shines on his face… Everyone can find their own meaning.

At a glance, the inner sleeve appears to be merely an impressionistic photograph. However, after closer inspection of the gatefold, there is a discernable human or spiritual form in the top left hand corner and the Paul Chain logo adorns the headstone. Would you care to elaborate?

It is the negative of a photo taken in Staglieno in Genoa, cold and icy and so eternal. In reality, Paul Chain’s logo is an ancient Christian icon that he used due to the similarities in initials. It’s really a monogram made up of the Greek initials of Christ, X (chi) and P (rho).

That very landscape is somewhat reminiscent of “Il Giardino Dei Morti” and hints at planes beyond the earthly sphere. In your mind, is the grave a passage to another existence? Where do you expect it will take you?

Let’s say that this is a spiritual vision of mine. Where, if anywhere, it will lead us cannot be known, and the mystery is even more impenetrable given that I do not subscribe to any religious creed.

“Ghost” grapples with faith and timelessness, sanity and dreaming. How are they connected?

Like a gloomy 19th century gothic novel. Do you know those old English Hammer horror movies? Or, more recently, “The Others”?

In the final act, “L’ Angoscia” why is the text deliberately printed back to front? Is the ghost essentially leaving Purgatory and experiencing eternal damnation?

Your observation is your own and very interesting; no comment. Add to that the optical effect of the backwards writing in the style of Leonardo da Vinci.

The character in “Condanna” is also suffering. Was he formerly a Templar or religious zealot before being transformed into a vampire? Was it intended as a divine punishment for his blood crimes?

“Condanna” is based on the tragedy of Dracula through a metaphor of people who suffer and decline physically and mentally.

Was the passage from “Dracula” by Bram Stoker woven into the text with the intention of binding the vampyric tale as well as paying homage to the author? What impact has he had on your imagination?

The lines from Bram Stoker are above all a tribute to this great author, our favourite in his style, given that I have been greatly influenced by his novel. I have read it many times and it has irreversibly marked and fascinated me. It is an intimate, disturbing experience.

Probing further, “Rituale” recalls earlier times when man and woman were at one with their surroundings. Why do you think that sense of freedom has been lost? Can it be recovered?

Because, in evolving, man has become convoluted. Selfishness, power, overdoing things, ignorance, baseness of spirit and social climbing have come with the progress of so-called modern times. The ancient magic can certainly be found, but within us.

As a musician, to what extent do you think the introductions to each side, “Il Canto Del Cigno” and “Nel Giardino” colour the atmosphere of the record? What are the roots of the latter? Is it an excerpt from a film?

These introductions are indispensable, particularly for the person who conceived them, and come together in an unbreakable philological whole. “Nel Giardino” is a monologue taken from the Italian film “Mortacci” (1989) starring Malcolm McDowell and directed by the recently deceased Sergio Citti, truly a great director. The film recounts the story of the souls of the dead who, by night, populate a small Italian ceremony. It is really in harmony with the band – a must!

In the twelve months that have passed since its release, how has the album been received? Have you garnered favourable press inside and beyond Italy?

Very positive, excellent I would say. All the Italian and foreign reviews have been more than positive, from all over Europe, South America and North America, where the great Ray Dorsey of Chaos Realm has been really impressed by us. We’re very pleased and thank all those who have entered into our world and understood us.

Touring is often an integral form of expression and promotion. Will this also be the case for the L’ Impero Delle Ombre? What are your aspirations?

Unfortunately not! It won’t be like that for L’ Impero Delle Ombre. Unlike the bands of today, we are not a well organised operation with manager and crew. I am telling that to you, and it saddens me a bit. We would like to play lots of concerts, but for now it is not possible. Be aware that for us it is a magic, intimate and honest art.

How was your concert supporting Death SS? If you had seen them play previously, how did this experience compare? For you, does the band still have that magical spark and relevance of its early career?

The concert in Rome supporting Death SS was not a completely positive experience for us, but it was still an experience. You must know that our drummer, Dario, played drums on the first official Death SS album in 1988, “In Death of Steve Sylvester”, so we know them very, very well, and I can promise you that, in the past, they were truly something else, something truly mysterious and restless.

Please detail your introduction and exploration through local and international music to the present day. Were you aware of changes in atmosphere, style and technique? What most impressed and disappointed you?

My brother and I are quite young and, besides our underground apprenticeship in small bands, we have experienced very little that is historical, other than that which we have been told about by the “old guys”. I confess that I am a real fanatic about ‘80s Italian Heavy Metal. Dario and Enrico, our rhythm section, lived through that historic period with Sabotage, releasing 3 LPs and a split 12” with Paul Chain. They have many stories to tell, such as when they toured Italy for gigs with little reward but enormous determination and passion; values that, as you know, are very scarce today!

Italy is revered for nurturing some unique, obscure and moody music. To you, who were the greats? Have you any special memories relating to them?

I think the absolute best were early Death SS, Paul Chain’s solo work, Antonius Rex and his Jacula. I really lived those records. The first time that I listened to “The Story of Death SS” as a teenager I nearly shit myself it was so atmospheric!

No doubt you heard the announcement late last year from Quasar Records regarding the “artistic death” of Paul Chain. How did that make you feel, given his creative genius and legacy? Will it really be the last we hear of him?

Paul Chain is a very good friend of ours. And a few years ago, I was about to work together with him. We rehearsed at his house in a totally improvised manner, Atomic Rooster-style jams, but nothing came together in concrete form. Then suddenly he had the classic identity crisis and serious internal conflicts that distanced him from everything and everyone. It even seems that he broke with Quasar Records. We are sorry for him both as a friend and as an artist that we value as unique and truly wonderful. I think that one day he will re-emerge with some new experimental project and his evil laugh!

Your fellow band mates, Enrico and Dario Caroli played in the old Heavy Metal band Sabotage. They recorded their “Welcome” Split LP with Paul Chain in ’87. How did the collaboration happen? Did they have any direct contact with him or tales they can share?

Certainly! They were good friends, and Paul Chain suggested the split to them given that he was very prolific and open to collaborations. Anecdotes and curiosities: firstly, when Sabotage sent in “Welcome”, their track for the split, his response was “shit, this track is better than mine!” and secondly, at an Italian Metal festival in the ‘80s, while Sabotage were playing Sabbath’s “Children of the Grave”, he climbed up on stage and gave a totally crazy evil laugh over the microphones!

How do you think Paolo Catena, the man, and Paul Chain, the musician differed throughout the years?

Not at all! Paolo and Paul were the same thing. This is the characteristic of a certain type of cursed artist like we might be too… very little fame, delicate themes, but authenticity. I would like to use this interview to pay homage to an Italian artist who died prematurely from a tumour last year but who nobody remembered, the great Sanctis Ghoram, the second singer who replaced Steve Sylvester in Death SS in the ‘80s and participated in the majority of Paul Chain’s solo career. I don’t know how to put into words the estimation and respect that I have for this artist, for me he was second to none for that obscure feeling!

Returning to the present, how would you describe the current climate in the Italian music scene? Do you still consider it capable of pioneering a unique sound? Please recommend dark Doom and Progressive bands, including albums, which deserve greater recognition.

Bah! The current scene is up and down: Metal is now becoming stale, though in Doom and Prog there are some isolated cases of exceptional bands such as Presence, Abiogenesi, Fiaba, Areknames, Wicked Minds and some other underground bands that are on the rise.

There is a strong scene of the occult, horror, orchestration and cinema in your compositions. What then are your interests relating to and beyond music?

You’ve already answered the question! Mainly horror cinema from all eras and also American Indians, places such as England, Ireland, Scotland and Greece. My personal interests are collecting records and films, Andrea is interested in musical instruments, Dario paints and Enrico works with wood.

If L’ Impero Delle Ombre were transformed into another art form, what would it be? Why?

Definitely a surrealist B-movie or a philosophical theatre noir production!

Who is your favourite author and film director? Why?

In Italy, Pasolini, Bava, Freda Argento, Pupi Avati, De Martino, Fulci and many more for that feeling of anxiety they created and the ability to work on ridiculously small budgets. For foreign directors, Murnau, Dreyer, Romero, Polansky, Herzog, Kubrik and Crushin because they are great dreamers and, each in their own way, have succeeded in representing the horrors of the lack of humanity.

What makes Italy Italian?

The Italians. In other words, the art of knowing how to cope in any place and in any situation, not to mention our history and the race of people that created it.

How do you perceive the following?

Discipline is fascism, in a negative way.

Hierarchy belongs to devils.

The Papacy means oppression.

The Occult is internal.

Reality is day to day.

Finally, if you could ask me a question, what would it be?

It seems you like our record! What emotions does it give you deep down?

Yes, indeed! I was impressed  from when I first heard it. At times, it has a calming and meditative impact by virtue of the eerie music. However, there is an inherent sense of power lurking beneath the surface, and whenever it rises, it sweeps over my body in waves and carries me to a mystical realm. It taps into the occult. My mind flashes between old films, Moorcock, spells and distant memories. I am at home and at peace.

The rite is complete. Thank you Giovanni and Andrea for casting some light on L’ Impero Delle Ombre. May your dominion continue to grow. If you have any closing thoughts then speak…

This is one of the most interesting and detailed interviews that we have ever been sent. Thanks! I send you my compliments and hope that we, us as a band and you as a journalist,  can continue with the same passion and humility. Finally, thanks to the readers, they can post their opinions on our site: www.limperodelleombre.it

LONG LIVE CEMETARY ROCK!!!

You may contact L’ Impero Delle Ombre at contatti@limperodelleombre.it

Danny Angus
November 2005